
in 

.J..13 



Title 



Imprint- 



IMPORTANT AND INTERESTING 



DEBATE, 



CLAIM OF THE CATHOLICS 

-to A PORTION OF THE 

COMMON SCHOOL FUND; 

WITH THE ARGUMENTS OF COUNSEL, 

BEFORE THE , 

iOARD or AIiSEItniBN OF THS OZTV OF NBW-irORS, 

ON THURSDAY AND FRIDAY, THE 29th AND 30th OF OCTOBER, 1840. 



SPECIALLY REPORTED BY R. SUTTON, PROFESSIONAL SHORT-HAND WRITER. 



[SECOND EDITION.] r" . ' 



^OFWASH'VO^^ 



NEW-YORK : 
FUEL'S HED BY THE PROPRIETOR OF THE NEW- YORK FREEMAN'S JOURNAL, 150 FULTON STREET. 

1840 



a I i : 

MsA^ 



[Entered according to act of Congress, in the year 1840, by James W. White, in the Clerk's OfBce of the DistrSct 
Court of the Southern District of New York, ' ' ^ ' 



X I NTRODUCTION 



On presenting to the public a report of the late impoitant fund to which they, in common with others, nad contribut- 
discussion before the Common Council of the city of New ed; and in order to supply the wants of their own poor so 
York, on the subject of popular education, and the Petitisn far as they had the means to do so, they established free 
of the Catholics tor an alteration in the present mode of ad- schools subject to their own control. 

ministering the school fund in this city, it will uut be con- More particular attention having been recently called to 
sidered inappropriate to accompany it, by way of preface, the subject, some action on the part of the Catholics was 
with a brief narrative of the agitation of the question here deemed necessary, and a Catholic Association was formed in 
during the present year. The following statement is ac- this city in the early part of (he present year, for the purpose 
cordingly given of the proceedings on the subject. of obtaining a remedy, if practicable, for the grievance un- 

There will be found in the debate information respecting der which the Catholics labored in this matter. Weekly 
the Common School System, its origin and its operation meetings were held for several months in the school house 
throughout this State, sufRcient for all general purposes. — attached to the Cathedral Church — political views and feel- 
A more detailed reference to that portion of the subject will ings were most sedulously excluded from all their proceed- 
therefore be unnecessary here. With Catholics and with ings — men of all political parties paiticipated in the move- 
the Catholic Church, the education of youth has ever been ment — memorials were presented to the Common Council 
an object of peculiar solicitude, as the vast means will tes- of the city of New York for relief, their prayer was de- 
tify, which this Church (let her enemies say what they will) nied, and the subject had thus acquired a cousiderable 
has always provided for popular instruction, through the public interest previous to the meeting of the Association 
agency of her religious orders and otherwise. But in all and of the general body of the Catholics, which was held on 
cases it has been one of their most anxious cares that the the evening of the 20th of July last, in the school house 
instruction imparted should not only not impair religious above mentioned, immediatelv after the return of the Right 
faith, which is the basis of all moral good, but should Rev. Dr. Hughes from Europe. 

strengthen and confirm it in the minds of those upon whom At this meeting the very Kev. Dr. Power presided, and 
the benefits of education were conferred. In the early and it was ably and eloquently addressed by him and by the Rt. 
middle ages, this task of education was discharged through- Rev. Dr. Hughes, and also by other gentlemen. The 
out Christendom almost exclusively by ecclesiastics or reli- meetings from that time forward were regularly held once 
gious persons who maintained numerous schools in which in two weeks in the basement room of St. James' Church, 
instruction was free to all who sought it. _ Men were then and assumed a most important character. Bishop Hughes 
not divided as they are now in their religious belief. But delivered on every evening an eloquent and instructive ad- 
with the conflict of creeds, came an altered state of things dress on the subject. The very Rev. Dr. Power also fre- 
wherever it prevailed. The religious spirit, which, in Ca- quently addressed the meetings in his powerful and impres- 
tholic times, led men and associations of men, voluntarily give manner, and occasional speeches were likewise made 
and without hope of earthly reward, to devote their lives and by several Catholic gentlemen who took a warm interest in 
their faculties to a compliance with the counsel of mercy, the proceedings. 

that declared it to be a divine virtue "to instruct the igno- On the ICth of August, an "Address of the Roman Ca- 
rant,' had in a great measure disappeared, and nothing tholics to their fellow-citizens of the City and State of New 
equivalent had arisen in its place. Alter a tune, however, York" was adopted by the meeting of Catholics held on that 
various governments attempted the establishment ot general ^ ^^^ j^ ,^^g published in pamphlet form, and also in an 
national systems of education, and in those countries extra issued from the office of the New York Freeman's 




that would be acceptable to all alike. It is not necessary Societv 

here to refer to the various plans that nave been agitated or „ * „ _ . . i ^ 

adopted in ether places. The history of the subject in this ^ ^^ ™ ^]^^ °^ SeP*""be.> a petition to the Common 
State is the only one which it will be necessary to glance at. V°"A'"i °,- *"® "^ "', ,?''' ^"''J'' ^°',' ''elief'^^-^s adopted at 
Here the system (by what means it matters not at present ^^^ Catholic meeting held on that day m the basement of 
to inquire) gradually assumed a form under the manage- ^*- '^''™'=*' Church, and was forthwith presented by a com- 
ment of the Public School Society of the city of New York, '"'"*^®' deputed for the purpose, to the Board of Aldermen 
which it is believed education has not assumed in any other ^^"° ^®''*^ *r*? '" session. A copy of the petition is an- 
country— a form of which religion not only constitutes no ^^^^^ *° *'^ introduction. 

part, but in which it is avowedly excluded. To such a sys- After some discussion and postponements, the 29th of 
tem Catholics could never give their confidence — and what October was finally appointed by the Board of Aldermen to 
rendered it still more objectionable with them, was the fact hear the Catholics and those opposed to them, by counsel or 
that it had a strong anti-Catholic tendency, especially in the otherwise, on the subject of their petition — the Public School 
character of the books that were used for school exercises. Society and the Methodist Episcopal Church having sent in 
The Catholics generally declined to participate in what they to the Common Council remonstrances against granting 
considered to be, at the best, the very dubious benefits of the prayer of the Catholic petition. On that day and the 
this system. They complained of the unjust administration succeeding one the debate took place, of which the present 
of the public fund by which this system was supported — a publication furnishes a faithful report. 'j 



The proceedings of the several Catholic meetings on this jurisprudence, or in other stations in public life, where do you find 
subject since the one of the 20th of July inclusive, wpre ""odels worthier of imitation than those by whom the pages ofCatho- 
f,-r>m timp tn timp fullv and accuratelv vPDOrted in the New ? t" story are adorned. Passing again fiom these to the ornaments 
tiom time to time tuny ana accmaie y lepoiiea m ine X^ew of ancient literature, of classic Greece and Rome, and wh.le desola- 
York Freeman's Journal, and the loUowmg interesting ex- tion and barbarism passed over Europe with their trains of evils, 
tract from the speech of Bishop Hughes at the last meeting, ^^ho, by patient, persevering industry, gathered up the fragments of 
which was held on the subject, on the 19th of October last, pn^ient hteraure to adorn the human mind ? It was done by the la- 
is taken from that Journal of the 24th of the same month. Xtclr^^idSu I'l-e, Z" J^u wlirtinZhrcrolfcThr n^c!^ 
It is given here as being particularly appropriate and in- thing of which to be ashamed. You will find no reason for the sup- 
structive. pression of all these things with which Catholics can charge them- 

Speaking of the introduction into the Public Schools of foW^'r/thnHni'll^f v"-,?"'' department if you take away the 

,y ^ , ^ c -n I I 4. -i 1 • 1 XI T.- 1 volumes Oatliolics have written, and the mighty libraries they have 

the works of Protestant writers exclusively, the Bishop collected, your shelves will present a barren appearance. Why, we 

asked, have the testimony of eminent Protestant scholars themselves, attest- 

" What reason they (the Trustees of the Public Schools) had to give d"f mo'rf than allX Prf,«t°n n u ,n °", ^'^' °"^"' °'' ^^r^i^i^^^- 

for the mtroduction of these writers-Robertson, Hume and others- led ""in histo v TuHsZdencP ^^^^ every spec.es of know- 

, ^ ^1 tj u I, .u 1 .1 u leu^e — in nisroiy, jurispiuaence, and canonical and Civil law — in a 
wha reason they could have when they knew there were such a „o,d ;„ ^{^- appertaining to human knowledge, it was found 
multitude of Cathol.c writers, to suppress even the least occasional that the great predominance was'due to Catholic labSr and a. hoUc 
mention of Catholic waiters ? Was u because Catholics have nomen .recess; and why then do we not find one page to adorn these school 
who have labored m the fields ofsc.ence to uriprove the htim^ b„oks trom authors like these. Again, wlfere are there poets like 
Now, thou-h It may be a secret to those gentlemen there is no de- Catholic poets ? Take from Englan^d the works of Catholic writers 
partment ot His ory or Philosophy ,n which the mind of a Cathohc _take away her Chaucer, and Spenser, and Shakspeare, and Dry- 
Iras not taken the lead ; and the time was when tlie Catholic arm den, and Pope, and you take away the cream of Enghsh literature, 
was found the s rongest in pushing the Sun ol Science up the Then if you turn your minds from these things to orhers not so im- 
Heavens Who has produc d w^rks of Theology like ours. In mediately essential to the cultivation, but to the'adornment of human 
£-'i°l,C J^! .^i„l^i °!J^Z, Z I?^^'". !LJ!iri?.?, *^°°ill Jui liff-'='''-^the study of th_e_mathematics-and who was the first to 

d, and ar- 
fterwards 

mighty stroke of the Goth and the Hun and when society was dis- Then againln irchi"trcturrand Urrp^licrtlorto'thrcTnX^ucaouTf 
solved, we found Catholic minds presiding over its reconstruction, bridges, which at one period of European history could not be con- 
aymg Us foundations broad and deep, and doing every thmg calcu- structed. without calling in the aid of some learned man from a dis- 
lated to improve the public mind. Who redticed a mass of rude cha- tant country, who wasusually some humble Monk who knew how to 
racters into letters which we now caH our alphabet Who but Ca- throw the daring arch, to span the river, or to cross the otherwise im- 
tJjohcs who thus gave a languase to Europe by establishing Its basis passable valley.'^ Take away from England even the architectural 
Nay more, after tbat who mtmduced that mos important branch of structures left by Catholics, and what w?,ll remain? Scarcely any- 
civi ization-agriculture ? It was the Monks, by whose industry thing. Oxford would disappear, and the greater part of Cambridge, 
and labor the reclamied wastes became the model farms" of Europe, and nothing would be left but St. Paul's, of which Lord Kingsbury 
and flora them agriculture spread. said, after seeing St. Peter's, it was scarcely fit for anything but to be 
We hear much o free government and of Parliaments, but was that blown up by gunpowder. If we turn from these things to inventions, 
a Protestant 'nvention ? Pjo, it was a Catholic invention ; for it was ^e may ask, 'who invented the art of printing ? A Catholic. Who 
copied trom the Cathohc Church. 1 he first models of representative originated that by which information was sint round through every 
governnrent, and of dignified and noble parliaments, were the coun- vilfage and hamlet-the post-ofhce ? A Catholic. AVho fnvented 
cils of the Catholic Church, m which every part of that church had the clock to tell what time of day it is? A Catholic. Who invent- 
us representative. 1 hence, then the idea was borrowed, which has ed the compass to guide the mariner across the trackless ocean ? A 
been the pride and boast of England and of this country after her, of Catholic. What is it that Catholics have not done ? And if this is 
representative government. But 1 might speak also of navigation, the history of this people, why is it that these teachers despise them. 
Who discovered the continent on which we now live. Was it not a and why is it that not a line from Catholic authors is permitted in 
Cathohc ? Who made the second voyage to this continent, and their books ? And they pretended to be all impartiality and to pos- 
stamped his name upon it ? Was it not a Catholic? Araericus sess feelings of the most liberal and philanthropic character. But 
Vespucius. Who m;ide the first voyage round the globe ? Was it turn awayftom this again to another thing. There are afflictions 
not a Catholic? And Catholics were the first to visit both the East and resting on the children of sorrow, some of' whom are deprived of 
the West Indies; they traversed seas to carry the knowledge ot Jesus si„ht, and the sunbeam falls to the earth in vain for them. Now it 
Christ to the ignomiit and they then becanie acquainted with the was a work of benevolence to discover eyes for these children of sor- 
physical position of different countries, and they conveyed that know- row, and to place them at the end of their fingers-or in other words 
ledge to the world either in letters or other documents, and added a to enable them, by running their fingers ov'er raised characters, to 
mass of human knowledge, whichhad assumed a gigantic size before read with rapidity ; and it is to a Catholic that the invention is to be 
Protestantism first^ sprang out of the earth. And while things ot a aUributed. Again there is another class, the deaf and dumb, who 
less beneficial tendency were going on in other parts of the globe, can neither hear nor speak. Now happily for them, there is an in- 
Catholic Missionaries -200 ycais ago, penetrated this country and vention, which emanated from a benevolent heart, by which they can 
continued a chain round iiom aiiebec to the Mississippi. While communicate thought, and for this they are indebted to a Catholic 
persecution was going on in he North and the South, with which priest. The language for the deaf and dumb, was the invention of 
Catholics had nothing to do, their free banner waved over Maryland, [be Abby Ponza, a E^enedicline of Spain, 
where the righls ol conscience were recognized. They went to the 

Indians, not to destroy bui to convert, to save, and to civilize. And Now if these gentlemen of the Public Schools will place Catholics 

if we turn our eyes from these things to others, we shall see those under a dark cloud, I see no reason why we should not penetrate that 

things which are calculated to reflect honor ou those who efTecled cloud, and cause some part of the rajjs of our former glory to return to 

their'accomplishment. When we see the alleviation of the infirmi- "s. It was then again the Abby L'tpee, who on visiting two sisters 

ties of human life, we naturally ask ourselves to whom the world was t^us afflicted, as a man of God, was himself afflicted that he could 

indebted for the act of mercy. Who planned the structures and laid "°' communicate to them the Christian religion. He began to move 

thf foundations of these hospitals for the afflicted, and asylums for the ^y signs, and continued to improve on his attempt, until at length he 

decrepid, the aged, and the young and exposed infant ? Were they acquired the means of communicating with the deaf and dumb with 

not all introduced and established by the benevolent spirits and the ^^e and rapidity. 

enlightened minds of the Catholics ol antiquity ? Turn your minds Who was the founder of Sunday Schools ? It was Saint Charles 

to other structures, and then ask who laid the foundations of the uni- Borromeo— a Catholic. In a word there is no department of know- 

vorsities? Who originated the idea ? Who aided their establish- ledge in which Catholics have not been distinguished. But to go 

ment? It was Catholics alone, and if you blot out the benevolent in- further, who discovered a quicker means of communication than the 

stitutions with which the earth is still studded, for which the world railroad? It is not used so extensively in this counliy as in some 

is indebted to Catholics, you will find bnt few insignificant ones others, but it may be important even here, if an invasion should be 

remaining. It you turn again from these things to the men distin- made of any part of our coast, to communicate information to Wash- 

guished by their own intellect— to warriors, and legislators— to men jngton and receive an answer back in less time than it could be done 

distinguished by their eloquence, by their scientific attainment.?, in by railroads; he would deserve a prize who should invent the means 



of sending information from Niagara to Washington an J resaivins; This Society, however, is composed of gentlemen of various sects 
an answer bacli in six or seven hours. And yet the equivalent including even one or two Catholics. But they profess to exclnde all 
of this has been done by a Catholic priest who invented the tele- Sectarianism from their scliools. If tliey do not exclude sectarian- 
graph. If we turn to music, who has brought it to its present state ism, they are avowedly no more entitle I to the School Funds than 
by the perfection of instrumental music ? Wlio has tiught the can- your Petitioners, or any other denomination of professing Christians, 
vas to speak ? And who has given life and animation to the cold If they do as they profess, e.xcUide sectarianism, then your Petition- 
marble .' Catholics. And alllhe boasted superiority of Protestants ers contend that they exclude Christianity, and leave to theadv;inta|:e 
is yet an infinite distance from the productions of Catholics, and of infidelity, the tendencies which are given to the minds of yoth 
they are proud to distraction if they succeed in producing a tolera- by the influence of this feature and pretension of their system. If 
ble copy of that which Cathclics have invented. I have thus en- they could accomplish what they proless, other denominations would 
deavored to claim for Catholics that to which they are confessedly en- join your petitioners in remonstrating against their schools. But 
titled. The gentlemen ot the public schools have not treated us fair- they do not accomplish it. Your Petitioners will show your Honora- 
ly or honorably, when they have thought proper to fill their pages for ble Body that they do admit what Catholics call sectarianism, (al- 
the instruction of our children, from Hume and Robertson, and other though others may call it only religion) in a great variety of ways. 
Protestant writers who were all opposed to the Catholics, and have In their •22d Report, as far back as the year 1S27, they tell us, page 
not given one sentence from Catholic authors." 14, that they "are aware of the importance of early religious instruc- 

tion," and that none but what is " exclusively general and scriptural 

'PTT'TTTT AlV" in its character, should be introduced into the schools, under their 

1 Hi lllUJiN. charge." Here, then, is their own testimony tliat they did introduce 

TO THE HONORABLE THE BOARD OF AL- ^"<^ authorise " religious instruction" in their schools. And that 

■r»T?UTvri?AT m? tw n^V nw TSIIT'-Hr vriRir 'hey solved, with the utmost composure, the difficult question on 

L>EKMEJN OJ^ Itiih Cili: UJI^ JNJ^W YUKit. ^hich the sects disagree by determining what kind of " religious in- 

The Petition of the Catholics of JYeio York Respectfully struction" is "exclusively general and scriptural in its character " 

T> f . i J J Neither could they impart this early religious instruction" them- 

Kepresents : selves. They must have left it to their teachers, and these armed 

That your Petitioners yield to no class in their performance of, and with oflicial influence, coidd impress those " early religious instruc- 

disposition to perform, all the duties of citizens. They bear, and are tions" on the susceptible minds of the children, with tlie authority of 

willing to bear their portion of every common burthen ; and feel dictators, 
themselves entitled to a participation in every common benefit. The Public School Society, in their report for the year 1832, page 

This participation, they regret to say, has been denied them for 10, describe the effects of these "early religious instructions," with- 

years back, in reference to Common School Education in the city of out perhaps intending to do so, but yet precisely as your Petitioners 

New York, except on conditions with which their conscience, and, have witnessed it, in such of their children as attended those schools. 

as they believe, their duty to God, did not, and does not leave them " The age at which children are usually sent to school, aifords a 

at liberty to comply. much better opportunity to mould their minds to peculiar and e.xclu- 

The rights of conscience in this country, are held by both the con- sive forms ot faith, than any subsequent period of life." In page 11 
Btitution and universal consent, to be sacred and inviolable. No of the same report, they protest against the injustice of supporting 
stronger evidence of this need be adduced than the fact, that one class "religion in any shape" by public money, as if the early religious in- 
of citizens are exempted from the duty or obligation of defending struction which they themselves authorized in their schools, five 
their country against any invading foe, out of delicacy and deference years before, was not " religion in some shape," and was not sup- 
to the rights of conscience which forbids them to take up arms for ported by public taxation. They tell us a.o^i') in more guarded lan- 
any purpose. guage, " The trustees are deeply impressed with the importance of 

Your Petitioners only claim the benefit of this principle, in regard imbuing the youthful mind with religious impressions, and they 

to the public education of their children. They regard the public have endeavored to attain this object, as far as the nature of the instl- 

education which the State has provided as a common benefit, in tution will admit." Report of 1837, page 7. 

which they are most desirous, and feel that that they are entitled to In their 33d Annual Report, they tell us that " they would not be 

participate ; and therefore they pray your Honorable Body that they understood as regarding religious impressions, iu early youth as un- 

may be permitted to do so, without violating their conscience. important. On the contrary, they desire to do all which may with 

But your Petitioners do not ask that this prayer be granted, with- propriety be done to give a right direction to the minds of the chil* 

out assigning their reasons for preferring it. dren entrusted to their care. Their schools are uniformly opened 

In ordinary cases men are not required to assign the motives of with the leading ot the scriptures, and the class books are such as re- 
conscientious scruples in matters of this kind. But your Petitioners cognise and enforce the great, and generally acknowledged principles 
are aware that a large, wealthy, and concentrated influence is directed of Christianity." Pa^e^7. 

against their claim by the corporation called the Public School Socie- In their 31th annuarreport for the year 1839, they pay a high com- 

ty. And that this influence, acting on a public opinion already but pliment to a deceased teacher, for the " moral and religious influence 

too much predisposed to judje unfavorably of the claims of your Peti- e.xerted by her, over the three hundred girls, daily attending her 

tioneis, requires to be mot by facts which justify them in thus ap- school," and tell us that "it could not but have a lasting effect on 

pealing to your Honorable Body, and which may at the same time, many of their susceptible minds." Page 7. And yet ia all these 

convey a more correct impression to the public mind. Your Peti- " early religious institutions — religious impressions, and religious 

tioners adopt this course the more willingly, because the justice, and influence," essentially anti-Catfcolic, your Petitioners are to see 

impartiality which distinguish the decisions of public men in this nothing sectarian — but if in giving the education which the State 

country, inspire them with the confidence that your Honorable Body requires, they were to bring the same influences to bear on the " sus- 

wiU maintain, iu their regard, the principle of the rights of con- ceplible minds of their own children, in favor, and not against their 

science if it can be done without violating the rights of others, and own religion, then this society contends that it would be sectarian ! " 
on no other condition is the claim solicited. Your Petitioners regret there is no means of ascertaining to what 

It is not deemed necessary to trouble your Honorable Body with a extent the teachers in the schools of the Society carried out the views 
detail o' the circumstances by which the monopoly of the public edu- of their principals, on the importance of conveying "early relegious 
cation of children in the city of New York, and of the funds provided instructions" to the susceptible minds of the children. But they be- 
for that purpose, at the expense of the State, have passed into the lieve it is in their power to prove that in some instances, the scrip- 
hands of a private corporation, styled in its act of charter, "The tures have been explained, as well as read to the pupils. 
Public School Society of the City of New York." It is composed of Even the reading of the scriptures in those schools, your Petitioners 
men of differerit sects or denominations. But that denomination cannot regard otherwise than as sectarian ; because Protestants 
Friends, which is believed to have the controlling influence, both by would certainly consider as such the intention of the Catholic scrip- 
its numbers and otherwise, holds as a peculiar ""sccjftriais principle, tures, which are different from theirs — and the Catholics have the 
that any formal or ofljcial teaching of religion is, at best unprofitable, same ground to objection, when the Protestant version is made use 
And your Petitioners have discovered that such of i/i fir children as of; Your Petitioners have to state further, as grounds of their con- 
have attended the Public Schools, are generally and at an early age, scientious objections to those schools, that many of the selections in 
imbued with the same principle — that they become untractable,diso- their elementary reading lessons contain matter prejudicial to the 
bedient, and even contemptuous towards their parents— unwilling to Catholic name and character. The term "Popery" is repeatedly 
learn any thing of religion— as if they had become illuminated, and found in them. This term is known and employed as one of insult 
could receive all the knowledge of religion necessary for them, by in- and contempt towards the Catholic religion, and it passes into the 
stinct or inspiration. Your Petitioners do not pretend to assign the mind of children with the feeling of which it is the outward expres- 
cause of this change in their children, they only attest the fact as re- sion. Both the historical and religious portions of the reading les- 
^"lungf™™ Aeir attendance at the Public Schools of the Public sons are selected from Protestant writers, whose prejudices against 
School Society. the Catholic religion render them unworthy of confidence in the mind 



ofyourfC*etitioners, asleastso far as their own children are con- ply its deficiency. Your Petitioners will close this part of their 
cemed. statement with the expression of their surprise, and regret that j?en- 
The Public Schdol Society have heretofore denied that their books tlemen who are themselves indebted much to the respect which ia 
contained any thins: reasonably objectionable to Catholics. Proofs properly cherished for the rights of conscience, should be so unmind- 
of the contrary could be multiiilied, but it is unnecessary, as they ful of the same rights in the case of your Petitioners. Many of 
have recently retracted their denial, and discovered,after fifteen years them are by religious principle, so pacific they would not take up 
enjoyment of their monopoly, that their books do contain objectiona- arms in the defence of the liberties of their country, though she 
ble passages. But they allege that they have proflfered repeatedly to should call them to her aid : and yet they do not hesitate to "invoke 
make sucli corrections as the Catholic clergy might require. Your the "strong arm of the civil power" for the purpose of abridging the 
Petitioners conceive that such a proposal could not be carried into private liberties of their fellow citizens, who may feel equally con- 
effect by the Public School Society, without given just grounds for scientious. 

exceptions to otlier denominations. Neither "can they see with what Your Petitioners have to deplore, as a consequence of this state of 

consistency that society can insist as it has done, on the perpetuation things, the ignorance and vice to which hundreds, nay thousands of 

of its monopoly, when the Trustees thus avow their incompetency to their children are exposed. They have to resjret, also, that the edu- 

present unexceptionable books, witliout the aid of the Catholic or any cation which they can provide, under the disadvantages to which 

other clergy. They allege, indeed, that with the best intentions, they they have been subjected, is not as efficient as it should be. But 

have been unable to ascertain the passages which might be offensive should your Honorable Body be pleased to designate their schools as 

to Catholics. With their intentions, your Petitioners cannot enter entitled to realise a just proportion of the PublicTunds which belong 

into any question. Neverthertheless, they submit to your Honorable to your Petitioners in common with other citizens,lheir schools could 

Body that this Society is eminently incompetent for the superinten- be improved lor those who attend ; others now growing up in igno- 

dence of public education, if they could not see that the following ranee could he received, and the ends of the Legislature could be ac- 

passages was unfit for the Public Schools, and especially unfit to be complished ; a result which is manife.=tly hopeless under the present 

placed in the hands of Catholic children. system. 

They will quote the passage as one instance, taken from Putnam's ^ yo"-- Petitioners will now invite the attention of Your Honorable 

Sequel nafc 296 Body to the oljections and misrepresentations that have been urged 

,,„?, ' , ,. ^ T. 1 .. 1 . T> 1 by the Public School Society, to granting the claim of your Petition- 

" Huss John, a zealous reformer from Popery, who lived in Bohe- g;g_ u j^ ^ j ^y them that it would be appropriating money rais- 

mia towards the close of the fourteenth, and the beginning of the gd by generaT taxation to the support of the Catholic Religion. Your 

fifteenth centunes. He was bold and persevering ; but at length Petitioners join issue with them, and declare unhesitatingly, that if 

trusting 10 \.he deceitful Catholics, he was by them brought to trial, j^j^ objection can be established, the claim shall be forthwith aban- 

condemned as heretic, and burnt at the stake." jo,^^, jj j^ objected that though we are taxed as citizens, we apply 

The Public School Society may be excused for not knowing the for the benefits of education as "Catholics." Your Petitioners, to re- 
historical inaccuracies of this passage ; but surely assistance of the move this difficulty, beg to be considered in their application in the 
Catholic clergy could not have been ^necessary to an understandinff identical capacity in which they are taxed, viz., as citizens of the 
of the word "deceitful," as applied to all who profess the religion of commonwealth. It has been contended by the Public School Society 
yoiu- Petitioners. that the law disqualified schools wliich admit any profession of reli- 

For these reasons, and others of the same kind, your Petitioners gion, from receiving any encouragements from the School Fund. — 

cannot in conscience, and conscientiously with their sense of duly Your Petitioners have two solutions for this pretended difficulty. 1. 

tc God, and to their offsprins, entrust the Public School Society with Your Petitioners are unable to discover any such disqualification in 

the office of giving "a right ciirection to the minds of their children." the law, which merely delegates to your Honorable Body the autho- 

And yet this'Society claims that office, and claims for the discharge rity and discretion of determining what schools or societies shall be 

of it,ihe Common School i'unds to which your Petitioncrs,in common entitled to its bounty. 2. Your Petitioners are willing to fulfill thej 

with other citizens are contributors. In so far as they are con- conditions of the law as far as religious teaching is prescribed,/ 

tributors, they are not only deprived of any benefit in return, during school hours. In fine, your Petitioners, to remove /ill objec-Tj 

but their money is employed to the damage and detriment tion, are willing that the material organization of their schools, andf 

of their religion, on the minds of their own children, and of the the disburseraenss of the funds allowed for them, should be conduct- 1 

rising ;g:ene"raiion of the community at larse. The contest is ed and made by persons unconnected with the religion of your Peti- I 

between the guaranteed rights, civil and religious of the citizen tioners, even the Public School Sociely,if it should please your Hon- I 

on the one hand, and the pretensions of the Public School Society orable Body to appoint them for that purpose. The public may then 

on the other ; and whilst it has been silently going on for years, be assured that the money will not be applied to the support of the I 

your Petitioners would call the attention of your Honorable Body, to Catholic religion. -- -^ 

its consequences on the class tor whom the benefiis of public educa- It is deemed necessary by your Petitioners to save the Public 

tion are most essential — the children of the poor. School Society the necessity of future misconception, thus to state 

This class, (your Petitioners speak only 'so far as relatos to their the things which are not petitioned for. The members of that Soci- 

own denomination) after a brief experience of the schools of the ety who have shown themselves so impressed with the importance of 

Public School Soc ety, naturally and deservedly withdraw all confi- conveying (A«»- notions of "early rehgious instruction to the sus- 

dence from it. Hence the establishment by your Petitioners of ceptible minds" of Catholic chddren, can have no objection that the 

schools for the education of the poor. P^'ents of the children, and teachers in %yhom the parents have confi- 

The expense necessary for this, was a second taxation, required dence, should do the same, provided no law is violated thereby, and 

not by the laws of the land, but the no less imperious demands of no disposition evinced to bring tlie children of other denominations 

their conscience within its influence. 

They were reduced to the alternative of seeing their children grow- , Your Petitioners, therefore, pray that your PIcuorable Body will 

ingupinentireignorance, or else taxing themselves anew for pri- be pleased to designate as among the schools entitled to participaie 



vate schools, whilit the funds provided for education, and contributed '" t'l^ Common School Fund, uiron complying with the requirements 




ended by the State and required by the people. The Public School! school, and St. .Tohn s school. 
Society are.and have been at all times, conscious that they had not t,^ And your Petitioners further request, in the event of your Honor- 
confidence of the poor. In their 2Sth Report, they appeal to the ladi*"® able Body's determining to hear your Petitioners on the subject of 
of New York to create or procure it by the "persuasive eloquence ° their Petition, that sucli time may be appointed as may be most 
female kindness," page 5 f and from this they pass on to the ncx' agreeable to your Honorable Body, and that a full session of your 
page, to the more efficient eloquence of coercion under penalties and Honorable Board be convened for that purpose, 
privations, to be visited on all persons, "whether emigrant er other- -"-nd your Petitioners, ftc 

wise," who being in the circumstances of poverty referred to, should THOMAS O'CONNOR, Cliairman. 

not send their children to some "public or other daily school." GREGORY DILLON, ) 

In their 27th Report, pages 15 and IG, they plead for the doctrine, ANDREW CARRIGAN, > Vice Chairmen, 

and recommend it to public favor, by the circumstance that it will PETER DUFFY ) 

effect but "few natives." — But why should it be necessaty at all, if „, , ,. i- ,, ,-. !, ,■ r ti -it \f..« v„,.i. „„« 

they possessed that confidence of the poor, without whicb^hev need Of a general mectrng of the Calhohcs of the city of J^ew Jo' fc. ««»- 

ncver^ope to succeed. So well arc they convinced of this, that no ^'^'<^d m the school-room of St. James' Church, fist of September, 

longer ago than last year, they gave up all hope of inspiring it, and lo 10. 

loudly ciill for coercion by "the 'strong arm of the civil power" to sup- B. O'Connok, J. Keh-y, J. McLaughlin, Secrctanes. 



RTi'lVI'OlVr'ilT'RAlVfTr'^ ^" ""^ °^ "•* Documents now submittedto your honorable b»dy, 

li iniJ i>l O X iX A i^ V-i ill lO jj jg gj^jgj jIjj^j ^^ appojntiiig teachers, no regard is had by the Trus- 

T> o o 'fifis to tti^ religious profession of the candidfies, and that six or 

Of the 1 RUSTEEES OP THE FUBLIC bCHOOL bOCIETT, jg^g^ ^f (jje present number are Roman Catholics. From an en- 

AND THE Methodist Episcopal Church, Read and quiry now made it is found that only two of the teachers belong to 

Commented on in the following Debate. the Society of " Friends'' 

It will thus be seen that the charge made in the petition of the 

To the Hon. the Board of Mdermen Roman Catholics, that such of their children as have attended the 

e tU i^'h f AToi/i Vn^h ■ public schools are genei'ally, and at an early age, imbued with a prin- 

oj me i^wj oj jyew loriz . ^j^j^^ ^j^j^,^ ^^^^ impute to a portion of the Trustees, falls to the 

The Memorial and Remonstrance of the Trustees of the Public ground, and is proved to be as unfounded, as it is illiberal and un- 
School Society of New York, respectfully represents : generous. 

That your memorialists learn that a petition from the Roman It is with regret that your remonstrants find themselves under the 
Catholics ef this city Is now before your honorable body, in which painful necessity of saying, that the petition of the Catholics contains 
they again ask for a portion of the school money in aid of the schools garbled extracts and detached portions of some parts of their an- 
under their charge. After the late unanimous decision of one branch nual reports in relation to religious instruction, and so arranged and 
of the Municipal Government, in which the other was supposed commented upon, as to convey a meaning directly opposite to the 
tacitly to unite, adverse to several petitions of the same kind from one intended and clearly expressed in the original documents. 
Religious Societies, it is unexpected to your remonstrants, to be so The same means are resorted to in quoting the language of the 
soon placed in a position which, in their opinion, renders it neces- Trustees when urging the importance of using measures for inducing 
sary to oppose the application of a large and influential body of their the poor to have their children educated. On different occasions, 
fellow citizens. But until the confidence which has been so long your remonstrants have suggested to the Common Council, the ex- 
reposed in them by the city government and the public generally, is pediency of requiring, by legal enactment, the attendance at some 
withdrawn, they feel it to be an imperious, though an unpleasant " public or other daily school," of the numerous "vagrant children 
duty, to remonstrate against what they deem a dangerous appli- who roam about our streets and wharves, begging and pilfering," 
cation of funds raised for the promotion of common and general ed- and this is tortured in the Catholic petition into a desire of •' abridg- 
ucation. ing the private liberties of their fellow citizens," and an acknow- 

The subject has, however, been so fully elucidated and ably argued, ledgement, on the part of the Trustees, "that they had not the con- 
in documents now among the public records, that your remonstrants fidence of the poor." 

cannot hope to shed any additional light upon it. They therefore The records of the schools will demonstrate that the industrious 
beg leave to refer your honorable body to Document No. 80, of the and respectable portions of the laboring classes repose entire confi- 
late Board of Assistant Aldermen, as containing the reasons on dence in the public school system and its managers. 
which your remonstrants would rely, in opposing the applications The subject of objectionable matter in the books used in thepub- 
of religious societies for a portion of the school fund. It is believed lie schools, is so fully discussed in the papers now submitted to your 
that no decision of the city government ever met with a more general honorable body, that little more would seem to be called for under 
and cordial response in the public mind. And as the Roman Cath- this head. Finding their strenuous and long-continued efforts to in- 
olics very recently issued an address to the people of this city and duce the Catholic clergy to unite in an expurgation of the books un- 
state, urging at large their reasons for a separate appropriation of availing, the Trustees commenced the work without them, and it is 
school money, to which your remonstrants have replied, they now now nearly completed. If any thing remains to which the petition- 
present copies of said Documents, which they respectfully submit ers can take exception, no censure can, by possibility, attach to 
to your honorable body, as containing matter relevant to the ques- your remonstrants ; and the Trustees assert with confidence, that if 
tion nnder consideration. any has escaped them, there is now less matter objectionable to the 

The petition of the Roman Catholics now pending presents, nev- Roman Catholics, to be found in the books used in the public schools 
ertheless, some points which your remonstrants feel called upon to than in those of any other seminary of learnine, either public or 
notice. _ private, within this State. 

By a misapprehension of the Law in relation to persons who are in conclusion, your remonstrants would remark, that they have 
conscientiously opposed to bearing arms, which is applicable to per- not thought it expedient, on this occasion to enter into a detailed 
sons of every religious persuasion, they attempt to adduce an argu- defence of their conduct, as regards all of the charges preferred by 
ment in favor of the prayer of their petition, and say, that they only the Roman Catholics. Those charges are before your honorable 
claim the benefit of the same principle in regard to the education of body, and the Trustees will cheerfully submit to any inquiry that 
their children. Now the facts are, that the law imposes a fine, or you may see fit to institute in relation to them ; and even if it can 
tax as an equivalent for personal military service, and in the event be shown that your remonstrants are as " eminently incompetent to 
of there being no property on which to levy, subjects such persons the superintendence of public education" as the petitioii of the Ro- 
to imprisonment, and numbers are every year actually confined in man Catholics intimates, it would not, they respectfully suggest, 
the jails of this State. furnish any apology for breaking down one of the most important 

With the religious opinions of the denomination of christians re- bulwarks of the civil and religious liberties of the American people, 
ferred to, your remonstrants have nothing to do. In opposing the Should your honorable body decide to hear the petitioners before 
claims of the Roman Catholic, and several other churches, to the the collected Board, your remonstrants respectfully ask to be heard 
school money, they have confined their remarks to the broad gen- on the same occasion in reply. 
eral grounds, alike applicable to all; but the petitioners have seen ^eu, York, October 3d, 1S4U. 

fit to single out a religious society by name, and intimate or indirect- ' ROBERTO. CORNELL, Presi(<«(. 

ly assert, not only that their peculiar religious views lead to insub- ^. p. Halbet, Secretary. 

iwdination and contempt of parental authority, but that the Trustees 

of the Public Schools, who are of this denomination, by reason of To ihe Hon. the Common Council 

theirnumbers or the " controlling influence" they exert, have intro- gf ^^^ q^ ^f jVg,p york : 

duced the " same principle into the public schools, and that their •' •' •' 

effects are manifested in the conduct of the Catholic children who The undersigned Committee, appointed by the Pastors of the 
have attended them. Your remonstrants feel bound, therefore, in Methodist Episcopal Church in this city, on the part of said Pastors 
reply, to state that of the one hundred citizens who compose the and Churches, do most respectfully represent : 
Board of Trustees, there are only twelve of the denomination thus That they have heard with surprise and alarm, that the Roman 
traduced, and of these six or seven, accepted the situation bysolici- Catholics have renewed their application to the Common Council, 
tation of the Board, for the purpose of superintending the manage- for an appropriation from the Common School Fund, for the support 
ment of the colored schools, to which object they have almost ex- ofthe schools under their own direction ; in which they teach, and 
clusively confined themselves ; — of the motive that induced this ex- propose still to teach, their own sectarian dogmas : not only to their 
traordinary portion of the petition, your remonstrants will not trust own children, but to such Protestant children, as they may find 
themselves to speak — of so much of it as conveys an idea that the means to get into these schools. 

Trustees who are of this religious persuasion, introduce or attempt Vour memorialists had hoped that the clear, cogent and unanswer- 
to introduce into the public schools their own peculiar opinions, able arguments, by which the former application for this purpose 
they can only say that no one of the numerous and serious charges was resisted, would have saved the Common Council from further 
brought against your remonstrants by the petitioners, is more entire- importunity. 

ly destitute of foundation in fact. If a disposition existed in any It was clearly shown, that the Council could not legally make any 
quarter to give a sectarian bias to the minds ofthe children, it will sectarian appropriation of the public funds; and it was as clearly 
readily be seen, that the most successful method would be through shown, that it would be utterly destructive of the whole scheme of 
the selection of teachers. 



^blic school instruction to do so, even if it could be legally done, of Europe, for the last ten centuries, could be written, which couU 

B«t it seems that neither the Oonstitution of the State, nor the pub- either omit to mention the Roman Catholic Church, or mention it 

lie welfare, are to be regarded, when they stand in the way of Ro- without recording historical facts unfavorable to that Church ? Ws 

man Catholic sectarianism and exclusiveness. assert that if all tlie historical facts in which the Church of Rome 

It must be manifest to the Common Council, that if the Roman has taken a prominent part could be taken from writers of her own 

Catholic claims are granted, all the other Christian denominations communion only, the incidents might be made more objectionable 

will urge their claims for a similar appropriation ; and that the money to the complainants, than any book to which they now object, 
raised tor education by a general tax, will be solely applied to the History itself, then must be falsified for their accommodation ; and 

purposes of proselytism, through the medium of sectarian schools, yet they complain that the system of education adopted in the pub- 

But if this were done, would it be the price of peace ? or would it lie schools does not teach the sinfulness of lying ! They complain 

not throw the apple of discord into the whole Christian community, that no religion is taught in these schools, and declare that any, even 

•hould we agree in the division of the spoils ? Would each sect be the worst form of Christianity, would be better than none ; and yet 

satisfied with the portion allotted to it ? We venture to say that the they object to the reading of the Holy Scriptures, which are the only 

sturdy claimants who now beset the Council, would not be satisfied foundation of all true religion. Is it not plain, then, that they will 

with much less than the lion's share ; and we are sure that there are not be satisfied with any thing short of the total abandonment of 

other Protestant denominations beside ourselves, who would not pa- public school instruction, or the appropriation of such portion of the 

tiently submit to the exaction. But when all the Christian sects public fund as they may claim, to their own sectarian purposes, 
shall be satisfied with their individual share of the public fund, what But this is not all. They have been most complaisantly offered 

is to become of those children whose parents belong to none of the censorship of the books to be used in the public schools. The 

these sects, and who cannot conscientiously allow them to be edu- committee to whom has been confided the management of these 

cated in the peculiar dogmas of any one of them ? The different schools in this city, offered to allow the Roman Catholic Bishop t» 

committees who, on a former occasion approached your honorable expurgate from these books any thing offensive to him. 
body, have shown, that to provide schools for these only, would re- But the offer was not accepted ; perhaps for the same reason that 

qtiire little less than is now expended ; and it requires little arithme- he declined to decide on the admissibility of a book of extracts from 

tic to show that when the religious sects have taken all, nothing will the Bible, which had been sanctioned by certain Bishops in Ireland, 

remain for those who have not yet been able to decide which of the An appeal, it seems had gone to the Pope on the subject, and nothing 

Christian denominations to prefer. It must be plain to every im- could be said or done in the matter until his Holiness had decided, 

partial observer, that the applicants are opposed to the whole sys- The Common Council of New York will therefore find, that when 

tem of public school instruction ; and it will be found that the un- they shall have conceded to the Roman Catholics of this city the 

charitnble exclusiveness of their creed must ever be opposed to all selection of books for the use of the public schools, that these books 

public instruction, which is not under the direction of their own must undergo the censorship of a foreign Potentate. We hope th« 

priesthood. They may be conscientious in all this; but though it time is far distant when the citizens of this country will allow any 

be no new claim on their part, we cannot yet allow them to guide foreign power to dictate to them in matters relating to either general 

and control the consciences of all the rest of the community. We or municipal law. 

are sorry that the reading of the Bible in the public schools, without We cannot conclude this memorial without noticing one other 

note or commentary, is offensive to them ; but we cannot allow the ground on which the Roman Catholics, in their late appeal to their 

holy Scriptures to he accompanied with tlieir notes and ^ ommenta- fellow citizens, urged their sectarian claims, and excused their con- 

ries, and to be put into the hands of the children, who may hereaf- scientious objections to the public schools. Their creed is dear to 

ter he the rulers and legislators of our beloved country ; because, them, it seems, because some of their ancestors have been martyn 

among other bad things taught in these commentaries, is to be found to their faith. This was an unfortunate allusion. Did not the Ro- 

the lawfulnes of murdering heretics, and the unqualified submission man Catholics know that they addressed many of their fellow citizens 

in all matters of conscience to the Roman Catholic Church. who could not recur to the memories of their own ancestors without 

But if the principle on which this application is based should be being reminded of the revocation of the Edict of Nantz, the massacre 

admitted, it must be carried far beyond the present purpose. of St. Bartholomew's day, the fires of Smithfield, or the crusad* 

If all are to be released from taxation when they cannot consci- against the Waldenses ? We would willingly cover these scenes with 

entiously derive any benefit from the disbursement of the money col- the mantle of charity, and hope that our Roman Catholic fellow citi- 

lectedj what will be done for the Society of Friends, and other sects zens will in future avoid whatever has a tendency to revive tb« 

who are opposed to war, under all circumstances. Many of these, painful remembrance. 

besides the tax paid on all foreign goods thus consumed, pay direct Your memorialists had hoped that the intolerance and exclusive- 
duties at the Custom House, which go to the payment of the army ness which had characterized the Roman Catholic Church in Eu- 
and to purchase the munitions of war. And even when the gov- rope, had been greatly softened under the benign influences of our 
ernment finds it necessary to lay direct war taxes, these conscien- civil institutions. The pertinacity with which their sectarian inter- 
tious sects are compelled to pay their proportion on the ground that ests are now urged, has dissipated the illusion. We were content 
the public defence requires it. So, it is believed, the public interest with their having excluded us, " ex cathedra," from all claim to 
requires the education of the whole rising generation ; because it heaven, for we were sure they did not possess the keys, notwitb- 
would be unsafe to commit the public liberty, and the perpetuation standing their confident pretension ; nor did we complain that they 
of our republican institutions to those whose ignorance of their na- would not allow us any participation in the benefits of purgatory, 
ture and value, would render them careless of their preservation, or for it is a place they have made for themselves, and of which they 
the easy dupes of artful innovators ; and hence every citizen is re- may claim the exclusive propriety ; but we do protest against any 
quired to contribute in proportion to his means to the public purpose appropriation of the public school fund for their exclusive benefit, or 
of universal education. for any other purposes whatever. 

The Roman Catholics complain that books have been introduced Assured that the Common Council will do what it is right to do 

into the public schools, which are injurious to them as a body. It in the premises, we are, gentlemen, with great respect, 
is allowed, however, that the passages in these books, to which such Your most obedient servants, 

reference is made are chiefly, if not entirely, historical ; and we put N. BANGS, 

it to the candor of the Common Council to say whether any history THOMAS E. BOND, 

GEORGE PECK. 



DEBATE 



CLAIM OF THE CATHOLICS TO A PORTION OF THE COMMON SCHOOL FUND. 



On Thursday, the 29th October, the Board of Aldermen The Right Rev. Bishop Hughes then rose to address 
met in special session, for the purpose of hearing the argu- the Board in behalf of the Catholics, and spoke as follows: 
ments of the Catholics in favor of their claim to a separate Gentlemen of the Board op Aldermen :— 
portion of the Common School Fund, and the School Unaccustomed as I am to address a body of gentlemen 
Society, and the Societies of the Methodist Episcopal Church such as I see here before me, I may not always be correct 
in opposition. The Board of Assistant Aldermen was in the manner of my address ; I hope, therefore, that any- 
present, by invitation of the Board of Aldermen, to hear mistakes of mine may be imputed by this Honorable Boar<t 
the discussion. The deep interest which was felt in the *°/"y inexperience. I would also, on the threshold of the 
, ,, ., ,, 1 -, •, 1 , ,1 sub ect observe, that in no part ot the discussion on this 

question by the community generally was exhibited by the ^^^.^^^^^ ,^ f^, ^ it has gone, am I conscious of having im- 
dense crowd which filled the spacious halls long before the puted to any gentleman who is opposed to the claim in 
doors of the Council Chamber were thrown open, and by which I have so deep an interest, any motive or design of 
the anxious solicitude which was manifested to hear the ^ sinister character. I am sorry, therefore, that the Public 
debate. Some time elapsed before the Aldermen and the f '^'^°°' ^"^'^'^ should have been pleased to refer to the 
„ , i /, . , ,. ,, language ot our document as though imputation had thereby 

gentlemen who were te take part in the proceedings could ^een cast upon their motives. I am sure if they again r^ 
obtain a passage through the mass of human beings that view our documents they wiU not find one solitary instance 
struggled for admission, even with the aid of a body of po- of any imputation dishonorable to them personally as gen- 
lice officers, and great numbers of individuals were ulti- 'lemen. We speak of their system apart from themselves; 
mately unable to gain admission. ""V^^ 'P'^'' V^ "^'^^ *^* freedoni which it is the right 

/ , -r, 1 -11 • °i American citizens to speak oi the public actions and 

When the Board became organized, and some points of public proceedings of public men ; but again will I repeat, 
form had been determined, it was agreed to hear the parties that in no instance to my knowledge has there been im- 
in the order in which their petitions or remonstrances had puted to those gentlemen one solitary motive, one single 
been received by the Council- viz. first the Catholics, then PUfPOf. unworthy of their high standing and their respect- 
iu n T.1- ct u 1 o - » 1 1 ii ii. c ■ i- !■ ii. able character. They have alleged, in some of their docu- 

the rublic (school Society, and lastly the hocieties of the 4. »u i u iu -Su I u- ■ /-j iv , , 

■" ■' ments, that we charge them with teaching infidelity ; but 

Methodist Episcopal Church, which were respectively repre- we have not done so. We charge it as the result of their 
sented by the following Committees and Counsel : — The system, not that they are actively engag-ed in teaching infi- 
Catholics, by the Right Rev. Bishop Hughes, the very delity ; and not only do we not say this, but we interpose 
Rev. Dr. Power, Thomas O'Connor, Esq., Francis the declaratiou, that we do not believe such to be their inten- 
r- -r. Ti TT c T iu-,Tr tioQ) but that the sy&tem has gone beyond their intention. 

Cooper, ILsq., JJr. Hugh bweeney, James M'Iveon, -v- * <•* *i,- *u -i » S, 1 *i, • ^ ^■ 

' ^' ' ' let, after tins, they ascribe to themselves these imputations, 

Esq., and James KsLLy Esq. ; the School Society, by and they cap their salvo by saying, that even the authors of 
Theodore Sedgewick, Esq., and Hiram Ketchum, the address shrink from a picture of their own coloring — a 
Esq. ; the Methodist EnscoPAL Churches, by the picture which they not only charge that we have drawn of 

Revs. Dr. Bangs, Dr. Bond, and George Peck. t^^™' ^''!/^° °^ ^" /'^e*: '='^^s«^ ^""^ denominations of our 

lellow-citizens. INow, 1 venture to repeat, that in no in- 

Before entering on the discussion the reading of the stance have we imputed to them motives which can reflect 

petition of the Catholics and the remonstrances from the on them as honorable men. I make these observations in 

other Societies here represented, was called for by the Al- t'^e commencement, simply to show how much has been 

derman of the Sixteenth Ward, and they were read ac written of the petitioners on assumptions which have no 

,.,,,, ^ _ ,1 -n J . ,1 foundation on anything that has been written or said by us. 

cordmgly by Mr. John Paulding, the Reader to the j ^now well the Public School Society is an institution 

2oard. highly popular in the city of New- York; but I should be 



sorry to suppose that those gentlemen would permit them- seiTing its simplicity. The remonstrants warn you, gen- 
selves to interpose that popularity between them and the tlemen, against giving money for sectarian purposes. We 
JUSTICE which we contend for when we seek that to which join them in that admonition. We contend that we look 
we believe we have a legal right. At the same time it is in honesty and simplicity alone for the benetits of educa- 
proper for me, at the commencement, to clear away ano- tion ; and as members of the commonwealth and as Ga- 
ther objection which an attempt has been made, in both tholics we seek but that which we believe to be just, and 
the remonstrances that have been read, to oppose to the ex- legal, and right. 

ceedingly simple principle for which we contend. The I shall now, gentlemen, review veiy briefly both the do- 
attempt has been made, (and you will perceive the whole cuments, because they submit to your Honorable Body the 
document, which issued as a Report from the Board of As- grounds on which that claim, which we believe to be just, 
sistant Aldermen, as well as the remonstrances of the Pub- is opposed. After the introduction of that from the Public 
lie School Society, and the Methodist Episcopal Church, is School Society, we find in the second paragraph the foUow- 
based on the same false assumption,) to assume false pre- ing passages : — 

mises in this matter, which are, that we want this money " The subject has, however, been so fully elucidated and ably 

for the promotion of the ecclesiastical interests of our ="«"'=''' '" documents now among the public records, that your 

„, 1 ^ TVT -^ .1 CI • i- • I, i i .u • remonstrantscannothope to shed any additional light upon It. i hey 

Church. Now, if these Societies wish to enter their re- therefore beg leave to refer your honorable body to Document No. SO, 

monstrances against our petition they should first read the of the Board of Assistant Aldermen, as containing the reasons on 

language in which we have urged our claim, and if they "«''iich your remonstrants would rely, in opposing the applications 

V. 1 tu ij u J tv,„ „,„!„„, (l,n t,.n,,ki„ ;,! ,^,, "' religious societies for a portion of the school fund. It is believed 

had, they would have saved themselves he tiouble, m my that „. decision of the Cit/Govemment ever met w,th a more gene- 

opinion, of reasoning on arguments which are but hgments ^1 and cordial response in the public mind." 

of their own creation and no proposition of ours. Have Yes it may well be so believed, for the reason that that 

not we distinctly stated not only what we want, but, to whole document went on a. falsi, isatie, and therefore it was 

guard them against accusing us of what we do not want, thus believed. But if I prove, as I shall, that the premises 

have we not said that we do not want the public money to had no foundation in reality then the arguments founded 

promote ecclesiastical interests, for, to this money, for such thereon must fall to tjie gi-ound, for they^were but castles in 

a purpose, we have no right. And, also, have we not fur- the air. It proceeds : — 

ther stated, that if it can be shown that we want the money " As the Roman Catholics very recently issued an address to the 

for this purpose, that we will abandon our claim— that people of this city and state, urging at large their reasons for a sepa- 

.„ .. ,1 ii i i -1 £■ . • • , i rate appropriation of school money, to which your remonstrants have 

if It can be shown that we want it for sectarian interests replied, they now present copies of said Documents, which they 

we will relinquish it altogether. We have said in the first respectfully submit to your honorable body, as containing matter re- 

pjace levant to the question under consideration 

„ __ . . .„ ... ^- r TT II " The petition of the Roman Catholics now pending presents, 

" /our petitioners will now invite the attsntion of your Honorable nevertheless, some Doints which vour remonstrants feel Balled upoa' 

Body to the objections and misrepresentations that have been urged j^ notice ' ■ •' 

by the Public School Society to grantina; the claim of your petition- „ g ^ misapprehension of the Law in relation to persons who are' 

ers. It IS urged by them that it would he appropriating money conscientiously opposed to bearing arms, which is applicable to pei- 

raised by general taxation to the support of the Catholic religion. ^^^^ ^f ^ teli^ious persuasion, they attempt to adduce an argu- 

Your petitioners join issue with them and declare unhesuatingly, „,gnt in favor ot tSe prayer of their petition, and say, that they oTily 

that if this objection can be established the pJaUn shall be forthwith ^[^;jn the benefit of the same principle in regard to the education of 

abandoned. It is objected that though we. a«; taxed as citizens, we ^^^^-^^ children. Now the facts are, that the 'law imposes a fine, or 

apply for the benefits of education as Catholics. Your pelition- ^,_^^ ^^ .^^ ^.qujyaient for personal military services, and in the event 

ers, to remove this dilficully, beg to be considered m their applica- ^(^1^^^.^ bein„ no properly on which to levy, subjects such persons to 

tion ill the identical capacity in which they are taxed— viz. as citizens imprisonment, and numbers are every year actually confined in the 

of the commonwealth. It has been contended by the i'ublic School „aols of this State " 

Society, that the law disqualifies schools which adniit any profession - j^„w I conceive the iUustration there referred to was a 
of religion from receiving any encouragements from the school fund. c, 2 ji- • 
Tour petitioners have two solutions Tor this pretended difhculty. strong one. Ihe parents and guardians ot tender ofispring 
First, Your petitioners are unable to discover any such disqualifica- h?,ve a right connected with their nature by God himself in 
tion in law, which merely delegates to your Honorable Body the j^jg ,vise Providence, and they should be shown a strong 
authority and discretion of determining what schools or societies ^ , r- ■ •. * "ti, *„JT „,1J„„„,1 ;t „^ 
shall be entitled to its bounty. Secondly, Your petitioners are wil- reason for iranslerrmg it to others. And I adduced it as 
lino- to fulfil the conditions of the law so far as religious teaching is an illustration and as a strong one — why! Because the 
proscribed during school hours. In fine your petitioners, to remove defence of the country is a thing connected with self- 
all objection., are willing that *« '"^t<=rial organization of their ^^-^^^^^^^ and preservation ; and yet, s:. tender is the genius 
scliools, and the disbursements of the funds allowed for them, shall ,. , . , r ^ ^ ', .■', ^' ,. . •» j- 
be conducted, and made, by persons unconnected with the religion of this happy country, of the rights ol conscience it dls-,- 
of your petitioners, even the Public School Society, if it should please pensed with all those who had religious scruples from ai" 
your Honorable Body to appoint them for that purpose. The public compliance with the law and chansed it into a small fine," 
PiftL'ca^c'reMgloJr ™°"^^ ""' "°' ^-^^pUed to the sup- ^^her'eby the right was- shown, and also the disposition to) 

It is deemed necessary by your petitioners to save the Public waive it. ^ > 

School Society the necessity of future misconception, thus to state the " With the religious opinions of the denomination of Cliristiana 

things which are not petitioned for." _ referred to, your remonstrants have nothing to do. In opposing the 

Yet, notwithstanding this clear and simple language, you claims of the Roman Catholic, and several other Churches, to the 

perceive both the remonstrances, of the School Society and ^ohool money, they have confined their remarks to broad general 

HciKcjYc .JV..U1 .>j ji,- r 1 • Hi arounds alike applicable to all ; out the petitioners have seen nt to 

the Episcopal Methodists, go on this talse issue, that we Jin„|e cut a religious society by name, and intimate or indirectly 

want this money for sectarian and illegal purposes ! Our assert, not only tlTat their peculiar religious views lead to insubordi- 

lano-uase could not be plainer than it was on this point, nation ana contempt of parental authority, but that the trustees of the 

j' .tu u 1 „ ,„„l,.,,.;i.,K1ono-= or,,i„frli In tV,o=o Public Schools, who aro of this denomination oy their numbcis Or the 

and yet there has been unchaiitablene»s enough in these „ ^„ntrolling influence" they e.xert, have introduced the ' same prin- 

Societies to assert the contrary. 1 have deemed it neces- ^pie' jmo the public schools, and that their effects are manifested ijuq 

sary to make this explanation at the commencement to the conduct ot the Catholic children who have aUen.led them." 

impress your minds, gentlemen, with what it is we seek Now I am exceedingly surprised that those gentlemen ' 

and what it is we seek not, because I know a deal may be should go so far from the text to draw reproach upon them- 

done towards a proper elucidation of this subject by "pre- selves. We said nothing to authorize tliis language, ^\e 



simply stated the fact; we mentioned the eiiciims'tance of and commented upon, as to convey a meaniBg directly opposite to the 

the cotttroliinff influence of those holding peculiar sectarian o"e intended and dearly expressed in the original documents." 

views ; hut we did not draw the conclusioK- whether the ^^ T fr r '''^^fu^^ ^ A T-f ^^Z 

insubordination of the children of our poor people was the 1'''^^^'^ ""^^^"f ^^'^"^ ^ ^^'" ^\l'^ ^'^\ ^^T-^""} '*• ^"' 

result of the |,rinciples taught in the schools or of a want of I am surp.-ised when we quote the words of thetr documents 

domestic influence. And yet these gentlemen have gone ^^^V ^^ t ''T >" ^'j^^S^',. ^et the documents be 

on to draw upon themselves an imputation of which we re- '^f!^' ^ l^^^^ "° ^'^""^ «" ' "f ^"''J'^^'-. , , 

^^ ,, ,. ^, . ,, .1 , ■ rriu J 1 he same means are resorted to in quotins; the languaffe of the 

spectfuUy disclaim the authorship. 1 hey proceed : trustees when uveing the importance of usinj; measures, for inducing 

" Your remonstrants (eel bound, therefore, in replj-, to state, that the poor to have their children educated. "On different occasions, 
of the one hundred citizens who compose the board ol trustees, there your remonstrants have suggested to the Common Council, the ex- 
are only twelve of the denomination thus traduced, pedicncy of requiring, by legal enactment, the attendance at some 

Now to this charge of traducing we beg to demur. ' public or other daily school,' of the numerous ' vagrant children who 

" and of these six or seven accepted the situation by solicitation roam about our streets and wharves, begging and pilfering,' and this 

■of the Board, for the purpose of superintending the management of is tortured in the Catholic petition into a desire of ' abridging ih» 

the colored schools, to which object they have almost exclusively con- private liberties of their fellow-ciiizens,' and an acknowledgment, 

fined themselves." on the part of '.he trustees, ' that they had not the confidence of ihe 

Now I should be one of the last to detract from the poor,' " 

merits of this denomination. Some of them I have known Yet I should think, gentlemen, such a reluctance to attend 

personally, and others by tlieir history, and my opinion has ^eir schools as to make it necessary to apply for a legal 

always been of them that they are among the foremost in enactment to procure first the money and then to compel 

every benevolent act and social virtue, and to lend their an attendance, would show that they did want that confi- 

arm'to strengthen the weak and the oppressed; and there- donee. I know they have not the confidence of our body, 

fore it is no reproach to them that they take the lead in this Yes, they have obtained two enactments from the Common 

work of henevolence for which I give them credit. Council depriving the parents in time of need— even when 

They o-o on to say: *^°''' and starvation have set in upon them — of public relief 

" Of thi'motive that induced this extraordinary portion of ihe pe- unless the children were sent to these or some other schools, 

tition, your remonstrants will not trust themselves to speak," And I have seen them urging ladies in their public docu- 

It might be recollected, gentlemen, if there %vere a lean- njents, to obtain their confidence by soothing words ; and 

ing that way it was after the publication of the "Reply" I have seen them urging employers' to make it the condi- 

to our I" Address," which, though it has the name, is no tion of employment. Yet after all this they pretend that they 

reply to our arguments. It is not an answer; but in it ^a^e had the confidence of the poor. I do not .say that Ihey 

they take the occasion to sneer at us, as I shall soon have have not merited it according to their views ; but I do r.ot 

occasion to show; yet I may here obseiTe that it would think they should expect all mankind to submit to their 

have been better if they had addressed themselves to the yiews of the matter, to the sacrifice of their own. 

principles of eternal justice on which we rest. They say: 

" Of so much of it," they add '' as conveys an idea, that the trustees <. The records of the schools will demonstrate that the industrious 

who are ofthis religious persuasion, introduce or attempt to intro- and respectable portions of the luborina classes repose entire confi- 

duce into the public schools their own peculiar opinions j^n^e ,„ jhe public school svslem and ils manaaeis." 

\\e never charged that they did. Then that poition in behalf of whom I stand here is not 

"they can only say that no one ot the numerous and serious ^ ^^ ^^^^^^,j ^^■^^^ ^th^ industrious and respectable!" 

charges brought against your remonstrants bv the petitioners, is _,, , , . r " ■ 

more entirely destitii'e of foundation in Ihct. 'If a disposition ex- J-hey then proceed to another point: 

isted in any quarter to give a sectarian bias to the minds of the T he subject of objectionable matter in the books used in the public 

children, it will readily be seen, that the most successful method schools, is so fully discussed in the papers now submitted to youi ho- 

would be tlu-oush the selection of teachers." norable body, thai litde more would seem to be called for under this 

Why there was no necessity for this vindication at all. head. F.nding their stienuous and long-continued cfibrts to induce 

".In one of the documents now submitted to your Honorable Body, ^^'^ Catholic clergy to unite in an expurgation of the books unavail- 

it is stated, that in appointing teachers, no regard is had by the trus- mg- the trustees commenced the work without them and it is now 

tees to the religious profession of the candidate.s, and that six or seven nearly completed. It any thing remains, to which the petitioners 

of the present Sumber are Roman Catholics." <=="> '^"^"^ exception, no censure can, by possibility, attach to your re- 

I have seen this statement figure in almost every docu- mcnstrants; and the trustees assert with corifi-.ence that ,f any has 

. J. ? i. ^, ,,■'";,, escaped them, there IS now less matter objectionable to the Roman 

ment ot that society, and yet 1 have not been able to find Catholics, to be found in iho hooks used in the public schools, than 

"six or seven of the present number who are Roman Ca- in those of any other seminaiy of learning, either public or private, 

tholics ;" and I doubt if they can be found, e.xcept they are ■^^'il^'n ''^'^ State." 

such Roman Catholics as we see our children become alter N°^^ ^^'f)' ™,"''^ ,"°.' ''"^°P' ^ ^'"' ^'^. 's' *' f^»'" ^ defy you to 

they have been in these public schools; that is Catholics find a reading boolv m either public or private seminary, 

who have no feelings in common with their church— Catho- *^* '"^ ^^^^P^"^* *° ^ atholics is not full of ignorance. Not a 

lies who are ashamed of the name, because in the school ^°°''- ,^'°'' '^ '' '''^';^ '^'f''*' °',*'® '' '^°"'d not be popular; 

books and from the teachers they hear of its professors only ^^^d if they refer to this then, they reier to a standaid which 

as "Papists," and of the religion itself only as "Popery." '^^^ repudiate, but it must be remembertd those people can 

It is such as these, I fear, that pass as Catholics. I only ^^"d their children to those schools or keep them at home, 

knowofone who is worthy of the name. They are i;ot taxed for their suppoit. But here we are. 

"From an inquiry now made it is found that only two of the teach- It IS the public money which is here used to preserve the 

ers belons to the society of ' Friends.' " black blots which have been attempted to be fixed on the Ca- 

And I don't suppose that better teachers could be obtain- tholic name. They say again, (and it is an idea that wiIT'-n 

ed anywhere, when confined within the limits prescribed ; go exceedingly well with the public at large, for it will show ' \ 

except they have the privilege to intioduce religious instruc- how amiable and conciliating are these gentlemen) — that ' 

tion. And without that it matters but little whether they are they have submitted the books to us as though we have no- 

of the society of Friends or not. They continue: thing to do but to mark out a passage and it will disappear. 

"It is with regret that your remons;rants find themselves undrr But are we to take the odium of erasing passages which 

the painful necessity, ot saying, that the petition of the Catholicp con- lU i tj * u t i tt »i ir, • i,T / i i 

tains garbled extraclL and delaehed portions of some parts of their ^^ "^'^ to be true ? Have they the rightto make such an 

annual reports in relation to religious instruction, and so arranged offer'? And if we speud the necessary time in reviewing 



10 

the books to discover passages to be expurgated, have they " Your memorialists had hoped that tlie dear, cosent, and unan- 
gjveil us a pledge that they will do it, or that they will not swerable arjruments, bj which ihc former application Tor this purpose 
even then keep them in. Have they given us a pledge that importurnj'""'""''^ ''''''' '"'"^ '''' ^°"""''" '^''""°" '''°°' ''"'■"""' 
they will do it as lar as their denomination is concerned? We shall see whether the arguments were so clear, co- 
And, then, at^er all the loss ol time which it would require gent, and unanswerable by and bye. 

to review these books, they can either remove the objection- " U was clearly shown, that the Council could not leaajly make any 
able passages, or preserve them as they see fit. An indi- sectarian appropriation of the public funds; and it was'clearly shown, 
vidual cannot answer for a whole body. They may make ''^i" '.'^."'O'-'''^ ^« "'^'ly destructive of the whole scheme of public 
,•„ A- „ u: 1, I ii.it- A 1 scliool instruction to do so, even if it could be legally done. But it 

a hi e offer which may be calculated to impose on the pub- seems that neither the constitution of the State, nor the public wel- 
he, but if we put the question if they are able and it they I'are, are to be regarded, when they stand in the way of Roman Ca- 
are willing, I should like to know whether they can, and ^^'"^j'"^ sectarianism and exclusiveness." 

will, pass a law to show us that they are sincere and that the There is an inference for you ; and a very unfounded 
object can be carried out? That would alter the case; for °"^ '' '* **"'• 

we may correct one passage to-day, and another next week; r- 'i/S"""^," ^^ "='"'''''=' '° the Common Council, that if the Roman 

J ., ■' ii L. r • i 1 Catholic claims are granted, all the other christian denominations 

and then another body may come into power, and we may will urge their claim's for a similar appropriation"— 

have to petition again and again. Could they then do it if And I say they have the right to do it. I wish they 

they would And should they if they could ? would do it, for I believe it would be better for the future 

They add : character of the city, and for its fame, when this g-eneration 

" In conclusion, your remonstrants would remark, that they have shall have passed away. li' they did claim it and the claim 

not thought It expedient, on this occasion to enter into a detailed de- , * i iU a- i u i j i • , 

fence oftheir conduct, as regards all of the charges preferred by il^ was granted, then an effort would be made to raise good 

Roman Catholics. Those charges are before your honorable body, ^^" piOUS and honest men. 

and the trustees will cheerfully submit to any inquiry tliat yon may " imd that the money raised for education by a general tax, wiM 

see fit to institute in relation to them ; and even if it can be shown he solely applied lo the purposes of proselytism, through the medium 
that your remonstrants are as ' eminendy incompetent, to the super- ol sectarian schools. But if this were done, would it be the price of 
intendence of public education' as the petition of the Roman Cathc- peace? or would it not throw the apple of discord in;o the whole 
lies intimates, it would not, they respectfully suggest, furnish any Christian community ? Should we agree in the division of the 
apology for breaking down, one of the most imporfant bulwarks of spoils?" 

the civd and religious liberties of the American people." I am exceedingly sorry that the gentlemen who drew up 

This much then as regards this document, which it will the remonstrance had not more confidence in the power of 
be perceived goes on the false assumption that we want this their own religious principle than to suppose that it would 
money for a sectarian purpose, because it was so referred be necessary to contend violently fur what they call the 
to in the report of the Committee of the Board of Assistant "spoils." We have submitted to be deprived of them for 
Aldermen, which denied our claim ; for when I come to years and we have no' manifested such a disposition ; and 
that it will be found that every proposition in it goes on the I am surprised that they who understand so much of the 
assumption that we wish this money for reli g-ious purposes, power of religion should attach so much value to the little 
If we did it would be just to deny it to us. But I will now money which is to be distributed as to suppose that it would 
takeup another document, and I regret that I cannot treat set Christians— professing Christians— together by the ears 
it with the respect 1 would otherwise wish to do. The docu- in its distribution. 

ment from the Public School Society, however it might " Should we agree in the division of the spoils? Would each 

have been led aside, and however feeble in its reasoning, sect be satisfied with the portion allotted to it? We venture to say, 

contained nothing I trust and believe which was intended '''^^ 'l'e/'"."-dy claimants who now beset the Council, would not be 

,. ° J iwii >va..^ .iiicuu&u satisfied with much less than the lion's share ; and we are sure that 

to be disrcspecttul to us. It was couched m langutige at there are other Protestant denominations, besides ourselves, wl.o 

which I cannot take offence ; though it was weak in its would not patiently submit to tbe exaction." 

principles, its reasoning was decent. I cannot say as After what they have said by authority as the grounds of 

much for this which is from their opposition, where, instead, they should have had history 

"The undersigned committee, appointed by the pastors of the for their guide, I am not surprised that they should prophe- 

Methodist Episcopal Church in this ciiy." sy in the matter. I too may prophesy, and I will say that 

They commence by observing, rhe "sturdy claimants" are as respectable as they are, and 

''That they hive heard with surprise and alarm"— I trust it will never be attributable to us that we claim more 

They should have seen our petition instead of taking than is our common ri^ht. and if that should be violated 

"hearsay" for their authority. ,^;t,, ^,4 ^^ t^^ Methodist Episcopal denomination, we 

— " that the Roman Catholics have renewed their application to the u ii ■ r <■ n, i r ti i, i, d. 

Common Council for an appropriation from the C'ommon School f'^''" °^ '^'" ^'^"^ ^^^ ''^"'^^ °' "^°^« '^'^'> '"^y ^^ "'«^ '''°- 

Fund, for the support of the schools under their own direction, in 'i^'B-S. 

which they teach, and propose siill to teach, their own sectarian " But when all the Christian sects shall be satisfied with their in- 
dogmas." dividual share of the public fund, what is lo become of those children 

Where did they find that? Where did they find that who^e parents belong to none of these sects, and who cannot consci- 
statement ? I should like to know from the gentlemen who "="""'"^'y =^""7 ]^'"" '° ''« educated in the peculiar dogmas of any 
... I u u ^ »^";'"^"'"^" """ one ol ihcm ? The different committees who, on a lormer occasion 

signed this remonstrance where thcy_ have their authority ajiproached your honorable body, have shown, that to provide schools 
for such an assertion? We disclaim it in the petition for these only, would require little less than is now expended; and 
against which they remonstrate. It shows then how much j' requires liule arithmetic lo show that when the religious sects 
. , , I J • -, 1 ,11 iL 111 1 have taken all, nothing Will remain for those who have not yet been 

trust can be placed m "hearsay,' when they should and able to decide, which" of the Christian dcnnminaticns lo prefer. It 
might have examined the petition against w^hich they re- must be plain to every impartial observer, that the appliiants are op- 
monstrate, in which they can find no such tiling. posfd '« 'ii'- "■•'o''; system of public school insimction." 

"In which tfeey teach, and propose still to teach, their own scctari- Have We said SO? And OU what authority have these 

an dogmas: not only lo their own children, but lo such Protestant gentlemen the right to say it if we have not? Where are 

children, as they may find means lo get into these schools." jheir dUxl And yet they come before this nonorable body 

I ask these gentlemen a.oain what authority they have for ^.^j „,^ke such assertions with the sanction of their whole 

such an assertion? 1 should like to see the argument which Church' 

gives them their authority to use language and to make a <. And 'it w:ll be found, that the unchariiable exclusiveness of their 

t&tement so palpably false as this is. creed, must ever be opposed to all public iiist ucti'n, which is no: 



11 



under the du-ectlon of their own priesthood. They .ray be consci- alls have no iuteiest to conceal what is the truth. But I 
entious m all this ; but thouffh it be no new claim on their part we .„_t „j tu » tu • /-< ^i >• i . " "• ■""'' '■ 

cannot yet allow them to guide and control the consciences of a!l the contend that there are pages in Cathohc history brightef 



Why, it would be a silly and absurd thing on our part to questions and passages enough for reading lessons, without 

look for it. But we never thought of it. It is a tiction selecting such as will lead the mind of the Catholic child to 

of these gentlemen's own creation. I contend we ask be ashamed of his ancestors. The Methodist Episcopal 
nothing for the community but for ourselves, and I trust it Church is a respectable church, and I am willino- to treat 
will be granted if it is right, and if we can be shown that it i' with becoming respect; but it is a young church; it is 

is not right we will abandon it cheerfully. But their asser- no' so old as the Catholic Church and therefore has fewer 

lion is wholly destitute of foundation. crimes; but I contend again it has fewer virtues to boas-t 

"We are sorry that the reading of the Bible, in the public schools, of. And in its career of a hundred years it has done as 

without note or commentary, is offensive to them; but we cannot Httle for mankind ^« nnv nthpi- rlon,^,T,;,Tnt;^i, 

allow the holy Scriptures to be accompanied with (AnV notes and - Hi fo^ir^.lf H, ^, I f^ ^j="° "'»^'f°"- 

commentaries Wistory itselt, then, must be falsified lor their accommodation • 

Have we asked such a thing? or in any way solicited ;:'i2c1ctlls"dZlt t' tctf thTrull:^!?^ , ^'^''"'^ '" ''' 

" • We shall come to that presently. 

and to be put into the hands of the children, who may hereafter " They complain that no religion is tau"ht in these 'cliooN md 

be the rulers and legislators of our beloved country ; because among declare that any, even the worst-form of ChrTstianity, wouid be belter 
other bad things taught in these commentaries ,s to be found the than none; and yet they object to the reading of the Holy Scriptures 
lawf^ulness of murdering heretics ; and the unqualified submission which are the only foundation of all true r'elimon. Is ifnot ITn 
m all matters of conscieiice to the Roman Catholic Church." then, that they wifl not be satisfied with any tHing short of" he total 
_ I nave a leeling ot respect tor many of their denomina- abandonment of public school instruction, or the appropriation of 
tion but n^t for the head or the heart of those who drew this ^"<^'' poi»on of 'lie public fund as they may claim, to their oAVn sec- 
document up. Here it states an unqualified falsehood. '''Til th?tr''"fb *l n • 
Here it puts forth a false proposition, and that proposition ,uiif h . 7-^° °". '' ^^''° '''""' T'^ey chaigo 
has been introduced here as a slander. I can prove that it "''^* -^ l"!" disclaim and they reason on a charge of their 
is so. And depending on the confidence here reposed in jT '''''^^*'°'^' ^""^ '"^^^'71 ''Z''\ ^"^onzcd. xNow as 
me, I propose and pledge myself to forfeit a thousand dol- Ln' 17'! ,b '"^ . t !*°'^ Scnptines, I may as 
lars,to be appropriated in charities as this council may ^^ ' ^f 7 "«' 'his, as at any other time. Their assumption 
direct, if those gentlemen can prove the truth of this allega- ' , f.' ^^''^''?'' *.^ Scriptures are read, sufficient precaution 
tion ; provided they agree to the same forfeiture to be ap- ' 'f ^ ''•^^•'" '''fV%, ^"' ^ •^° "°' agree with them 
propriated in a similar manner, if they fail to establish its "2, '* T^T' ^""^ I will give my reason What is the 
truth. If they can prove that the Catholic Church sanctions, 'x^". °1,"''* *''^ '" T ^ ^T^ "^ f' u '"!' "'^ '"§ "'^ 
or has made it lawful, to murder heretics, I will forfeit that **°'^ Scnpinves as the centre from w'hich they draw their 
sum. I feel indignant that we should be met, when we '^'P^'-^'"'' contradictory systems? that book which ap- 
come with a plain, and reasonable, and honest request to ITl °f ''• 7 VT "''"^'' °' "' '" ^f ^'^ '°"'''^^ 
submit to the proper authorities, with slanders such as that, I-,, '^^^sension when i does not come to the minds of 
and that in the name of religion which is holy. I wish fTT '•"? authority as to fix on their minds any 
them to hear what I say. I know very well their books tell .u''- Pl''»cjplf • ^s regards us, while the Protestants 
them so ; but they should look at the original and not at f^Y ^^^'P^ '^ the true version we say it is not so. We treat 
secondary authorities when they assail our reputation and '^e Scriptures reverently but the Protestant version of the 
our rights. scriptures is not a complete copy, and as it has been altered 

"But if the principle on which this application is based should be "nd changed, we do not look upon it as giving the whole 

admitted. It must be carried far beyond the present purpose. If all writings which were given by the inspiration of the Holy 

riVVanvrentfi?froT,heT\™''''™''''rr'°''°^ ¥"'^- ^^^ °*'J*=^' "°^ '° *he Holy Scriptures, but to the 

posed to war under all circumstances." " ^°'^ much to ask Protestants to relinquish theirs and 

With that I have nothing to do and therefore I will pass ^^^^ ""''s fo'' 'he use of the public schools. If we could ask 

on to another point. you— if we could propose that you should take our book— 

■■, r Tt!^^ ^k.""^" P'"^°'''^f'^°'"P''''" *'^"'°''''5 I'a^e been introduced if we should ask you to put out the Protestant Scriptures 

rw\tCw:vtth!^\t;ts"ieitsroo^^^^^^^^^ rVI" r'' ^f °"'" "°^^ ''^^ '=°'"'"^"*' '' y°" *'"k 

ference is made, are chiefly" if not endrely, histoieil and we nut it P'-o'^^tants Would agree to it? Do you not think we should 

to the candor of the Common Council to say whether any history of °® arraigned as enemies of the word of God— for that is one 

eiSomH to memlnn'"il,rR''"''' n"u ,'"' ^.""?' '"'"'"'^ ^""'"^ "^'''S'' ""^^^ '^'^^^ '' '^ ^°"ght to denounce us. When we 

wlfr^ordinThiXri'cilf^crunfa^^^^^^^^^^ speak language of this kin'd, instead of understanding us 

And this is what the remonstrants call a strono-' issue according to our comprehension of the subject, Ihey charge 

They assert that no history could be written which could ^hat we are enemies to the Holy Scriptures. But to object 

either omit to mention the Roman Catholic Church, or 1° version is not to object to the Holy Scriptures; and 

mention it without recording historical facts unfavorable to ^"^ prepared to show them that no denomination has done 

the Catholic Church. If this be the case I ask you whether ^° ™"chin the true sense for the Scriptures as the Catholic 

as citizens entitled to the rights of citizens, we are to be ^''^f ^• 

compelled to send our children to schools which ca«„of r ■■ r *; f.^'"°""'^?!^' ^'I'' • u 

teach our children history without blacken inxr ns R..t 7^' ^"' 'ti'sis "°t ^11 They have been most complaisamly oflTered 

aeainthevsav vunoui oiacKening us. -but the censorship of the books to be used in the public schools. The 

"■W»,=; »,{.'. -r n , ,• . committee to whom has been confided the management of these 

T?nm»h,cfi ■ '®'"^'°"<^*"^<='^ '" which the Church of schools in this city, offered to allow the Roman Catholic Bishon to 

nlm Lr^ ■'' ^ prominent part could be taken from writers of her e-^purgate from these books any thing offensive to him." ^ 

hlI^nth^T"'°i"°°y'"'?'""''^''"'=™'Sht be made, more objectiona- And now they go out of their way to sneer at us ind von 

""'^ol^^Sf^l^Z^^^S'i^^^^ will obse.e the\\pancy with whi^h th^i: r^""'^°" 

;, tri«,cs mat vuuioac msion- ' But the offer was not accepted; perhaps, for the same reason 



IZ 

that he (declined to decide on the admissibility of a book of extracts They had better not make the attempt, for their mantle is 

from tlie Bible, which bad been sanctioned by certain Roman Bi- ^^Q narrow 

shops in Iseland. An appeal, It seems, had gone to the Pope on tlie u j i, ' .u . d <-. .i i- r n ■■ n ,- . 
Bublect, and noihin- coulJi be said or done m the matter until bis and hope that our Roman Catholic fellow citizens will m future 
Holmess had decid?d. The Common Council of New York will avoid whatever has a tendency to revive the painful remembrance." 
therefore find, that when they shall have conceded to the Roman Ca- •- -l^et them enter upon that chapter and discuss the charita- 
tholicsof this city the selection of books for the use of the public bleness of their religion, and I am prepared to prove — I 
Bchools, that these books must undergo the censorship of a foreign gpeak it with confid'ence in the presence of this honorable 
Potentate. We hope the time is far distant when the citizens oi this ,, ., . .1 ,-t ,, ,. i."^. . 1 -i i_i x 
country will allow any foreign power to dictate to them in matters assembly— that the Catholic religion is more charitable to- 
relating to either general or^municipal law." those that depart from her pale, than any other that ever was 
1^^ Prophets again ; ^but not prophets of charity. I, sir, say yoked in unholy alliance with civil power, 
not prophets of good-will, for there is something more in " Your memorialists had hojied that the intolerance and exclusive- 
their souls than the public welfare. There is something in "ess which had characterized the Roman Catholic Church in Europe, 
^, . . . ,. ,, ' • • u- 1 J 1,- u J bad been greatly softened under the benign influences of our civil in- 
their insinuation that IS insulting, and a tone which does stitutions. Tii" pertinacity with which Ueir sectarian interests are 
not show a mind enlightened and enlarged, and an appre- new urged, has dissipated the illnsion." 

ciation of equal justice and equal rights. Just their way. Sectarian interests, again,, although we have disclaimed 

They hear that an appeal has gone to the Pope ; and if we them, 

desired to appeal, also, we should claim the right to do it " We were content with their having excluded us, ' ex cathedra,' 

without asking permission from any one. Catholics all over ?°™ ='" f"'^ f ^T""\ ^°' "'' b J'', '"'! "''^ ^'t "°' P""'""' ^^^ 

V , , , P", , . . ■' 1 -,> 1 1 r , keys, notwithstanding their confident pretensions ;" 

the world do It when their consciences make it a duty, but yVhy they need not be uneasy about our excluding them 

not in matters of this kind. "These books must undergo from heaven, for their opinion is that they have no chance 

the censorship of a foreign Potentate!" Now we regard to enter if they have any thing to do with us; and therefoie 

hitn only as supreme in our Church, and there's an end our excluding them is of no avail. 

of it. _ — " nor did we complain they would not allow us any participation 

"We cannot conclude this memorial without noticing one other in tlie benefits of purgatory" — 

ground on which the Roman Catholics, in their late appeal to their p,-ay what has that ta do with Common School Educa- 

iellow citizens, urged their sectarian claims, and excused their con- jJ^q 7 

scientious objections to the public schools. Their creed is dear to ,,,-•. , , , , ,. , , , ,. , • ■ , 

them, it seenis, because some of their ancestors have been martyrs to *"[ '} >^ ?■ Pla<=e they liave made for themselves, and of which they 

their faith. This was an unfortunate allusion." may claini the exclusive property ;" 

Some! " Some of their ancestors have been martyrs to "^ell it is no matter whether we believe in purgatory or 
their faith." I speak of the Catholics of Great Britain and not; it is no matter for the Common Council to decide.— 
Ireland, and when you reflect on the bigotted and unjust But if they are not satisfied with our purgatory, and wish to 
laws which Great Britain founded against all that were Ca- go farther, they may prove the truth of the proverb which 
tholics, by which their churches were wrested from them, says "they may go fartlier and fare worse." 
and a bribe was offered as an inducement to the double . ''biit we do protest against any appropriation of the pubhc school 
U.UU a uiiuD ..U.I5 vFiioivu k; u. i* uuv- j.1, • j fund tor their exclusive benefit, or for any other purposes whatever, 
crime of murder and of perjury, when it authorized any Assured that the Common Council will do what it is right to do in 
man to bring the head of a Catholic to the commissioner, the premises, we are, gentlemen, with great respect, your most obe- 
and if he would only swear it was the head of a priest he "^'^1' servants, N^BAM|S,^ ^^^^ 
got the same price as for the head of a wolf, no matter GEORGE PECK." 
whose head it was— and when legislation of that kind con- j^n^ ^ow I have gone through these two remonstrances, both 
tinned for centuries, this you must agree with nie, was being of which, it will be seen, refer to the document of the Board 
martyrs indeed. But when have the Methodists shown a of Assistant Aldermen, and rest their opposition on the 
sympathy for those contending for the rights of conscience? game ground. Of that document, I will pass over the intro- 
When the Dissenters of England claimed to be released duction, but 1 may observe that its authors, by what influ- 
from the operation of the " Test and_ Corporation" act gn^jg j am unable to say, have been made to rest their 
by which they were excluded from civil office, did the report upon an issue such as I have already described, and 
Blethodist Episcopal Church assist them 1 Not a solitary for which our petition furnishes no basis. ' I will first call 
petition went from them for the enlargement of their free- your attention to the following observations :— 
dom. And is it a wonder that we look to conscience and " The Petitioners who appeared, also contended that thev con- 
admire those wlio had the firmness to sutler for conscience tributed, in common with all other citizens who were taxed for the 
sake' By the penal laws against Catholics the doors of purpose, to the accumulation of the Common School Fund, and that 
sdiic . ajj- i.ic i^cuui iui.o i,p,i^iiio . they were therefore entitled to a participation m Its advantages ; that 
Parliament were closed against us, it we Had a conscience, ^^^, ji,j,y receive no benefit from the fund, inasmuch as the members 
for it required us to take an oath which we did not believe of the Catholic Churches could not conscientiously send their chil- 
to be true, and therefore we could not swear it. There it dren to schools in which the religfoiis doctrines of their fathers 
. '. , , . , „„ ,.„ were exposed to ridicule or censure. The tinlh and justice of tfie 

IS, sir; It IS because wehave a conscience, because wPie- fi,^, branch of this proposition 

spect it, that we have suffered, and while virtue is admired Tijat is, the payment of taxes. 

on earth, the fidelity of the people that are found standing « cannot be questioned. The carrectncss of the latter part of 

by the right of conscience will command the admiration of the argument, so Jar as the same relates to books or exercises of any 

the world. And yet, we are told, it was an unfortunate al- *^'"'' » \'''f'f\' f'""}'; I'^fi^'^^iog ™ the Catholic Church was 

.111, .rv^iiu. ^:.. J , , VEKI-EV by the School Soctety." 

lusion! ^ , , , , .J J Now it is to be remembered that this denial, of anything 

" Did not the Roman Catholics know, that they aridressea many 1 ■ 1- 1,1 • iu 1 i r tu T) ur cv, 1 c„„;„t. 

oftheirfe!lo« citizens who could not recur to >he memoirs of their objectionable m the books of the Public School Society 

ancestors without being reminded of the revocation of the Edict of Was made at the period of the last application. 1 am per- 

Nantz" — " _ suaded those gentlemen, if they had known there was any- 

They had nothing to do with it. fhi^g objectionable to the Catholics, would not have denied 

"thempsacreofSt.Baiaholomew'sday,thefiresofSmithfield"- jj_ j ^,^ ^^^.^ they believed there was nothing, and from 

What IS that to us ? Are we the people that took part in ^j^.^ circumstance I think I may fairly draw this inference, 

_"*or the crusade against the Waldenses7 We would willingly '^J-t they had not paid that attention to the books which they 

cover these scenes with the mantle of charity"- ', should have done, knowing the variety of denominations 



13 

contributing to this fund and entitled to its benefits; or that here conscience is supreme— that here all men are free_ 

knowing this and the feelings and principles ot' Catholics, to choose the views wliich their judgments, with a sense of 

that the,/ were incompetent tbr the proper dischaiga of their their respoiis;biiit, to an eternal weal or woe, shall otier for 

responsible duties. It is only on one ol' these two grounds their adoption. It sliould be taught that here neighbors hav->. 

that I can account for their </e;m(/. But since that time the right to ditier, and whatever is the right of one must be re- 

they have not only admitted that the objection was correct, cognized as the right of the other ; and the distribution of 

but they have expunged passages from 'the books which at this fund will be belter calculated to benefit the commu- 

the time of this denial they said did not exist. I shall pass nity than it can be by these Public Schools where every 

on now to the two questions on which the decision of the thing seems to be at par exxept religion, and that is below 

Committee was made to rest. The first is, par at an immense discount. They tell us then that — 

" H.vc the Common Councl of (his citv, under the existing; laws ," '^'he l^'^^! '^'^^ i,mp':'-^"ve in its chnracter, ami the several Rell- 

relatWe to Common Schools ,n ihe city of New-Yo,k, a^ le^'al S-'ousfeoc,eUes ol the c.(y possessed a leganglt lodtavvh^^^ 

nXl to appropriute any portion of the School Fimd lo relio.ous spec ave poV, ions o tliel' und liom the tutblie tiea»t,y subj:c only 

ij^iiL lu .ipp^i^ui.. iLo I, I „ to the restriction, that the mon.-y SO received should be appropriated 

corporations ., ■ ■ i „j „ i„:^ to the purposes of iVcc and common education." 

\\hether they have or not one thing is clear aid certain, ^-.J^^^^ ,, j^^ ^^ ^^^.^^^^„ j^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^^^ . ^ ^^^^.^ 

tjiatit IS not as a "Religious Corporation ' toat we apply .^, ^^^ .^^-^^^ ^^^ ^^^^-^^ ^j^^ ^-^^ t^ ^^.^^^ j^ ^^j.^^^ 

tor It ; and It seems to me that this_ should have s ruck the ^^^.^^ ^.^^.^.^^^ ^j^^;,. "^^^^^ it.tiH, if iir the judgment 

attention of the Public bchool Society and the other gen- ^^.^^l^ honorable body the circumstances of the case entitle 

tlemen who have remonstrated. _ We do not apply as a re- ^j^^^ ^^ .^_ ^^ .^ ^^J^^ impeachment-the legislature had 

hgious body-we apply m the identical capacity in which ,^^ j^^tg^ti^,, to reflect on religious bodies-it had no in- 

we are taxed-as citizens of the commonweaUh, without an ^^^^^.^^ ^^ black-ball religion in the public schools ; and yet 

encroachment on princip e or the violation ol any man s ^-,^4^^^^^ ^^^ l,^^^ taken ^of it. Such was not the case : but 

conscience. But, secondly, they ask— ^^^^^^^^ circumstances had arisen ; and what were theyl 

"^Vonld the exercise of such power be in accord.nce with the -Why g^ss abuses had been practiced by one of the reli- 

spirit ot the Constitution, and the nature of our governniont .' • ■ ^ ■ i- i 

<-i 1 • 1 i TCJ.1 <-< i-i •• 1^ * I, ffious societies, and — 

Certainly not. If the Constitution ami government have " ,. ^^^^ ,.^^j^ ^^^^.^^j ^^^ ^^^ Church were applied to other pui- 

detcrmined that no religious denomination shall receive poses than those contemplated by the act." 

any civil privilege the exercise of such power will not be in Under some pretext the favor to expend the school monies 

conformity with the spirit of the Constitution and the nature had been conferred on that society in a way that distin- 

of our government. But there is throughout and in all these guished it i'rom all other Christian denominations and so- 

documeuts a squeamishucss, a false delicacy, a persuasion cieties ; and the other seeing this privilege conferred on 

that everything which excludes religion abroad is right and one and not on the rest, ventured to remonstrate with the 

liberal. It would be unnecessary for me to follow this re- legislature ; they intimated that the partiality to that Society 

portsontence by sentence if there. had notbeenso miichreli- of Baptists was an injustice to others, and they remonstrat- 

ance placed on it by those ^yho have remonstrated ; but as ed against the law conferring exclusive privileges and 

so much consequence has been attached to it I will call against no other tiling whatever. And yet by every docu- 

your attention to some other passages. They go on to ment, and by this very document, it seems to be imagined 

say: that the legislature did not revoke special favors granted to 

" Private assooiatlons and religious corporations were excluded that Society, but withdrew its aid from all Christian 

from th-manasementoi-the fund and th», government of the schools, c^y ^g SO th^t all the men who remonstrated against 
Fnv.ite interest, under this svstem, could not appropriate the public . ' . , . ^ 1 » u l jU 1 

treasure to private purposes, and religious zeal could not divert it to this partial legislation were found to have been themselves 

the purposes of proselytism." deprived of the privilege which they had enjoyed, and this 

Why there is nothing of the kind intended. Wo have on the strength of their own remonstrances for quite ano- 
bsen driven by the obligation of our consciences and at ther thing. And the discretion which the legislature had 
our expense, which we are poorly able to bear, to provide exercised to designate the schools which should receive this 
schools, but they are not convenient, they are not well fund was transferred to this honorable body, the Council of 
ventilated, and are not well calculated to give that develop- the citv of New-York. And why was it transferred? I 
ment to your young citizens which they ought to have ; cannot speak positively, but while it seems to me that there 
why argue, then, against religious corporations, and, in were abuses shown to exist by the remonstrants, of which 
treating this question, bring prejudices into view which they made complaint, we may suppose the legislature con- 
ought to have no existence in reality? They then go on ceived it difHcult for them to take cognizance of the matter, 
t J give the history and ovirrin of the present law and of the not being on t'le spot, but that the Common Council being 
Public School Fund, and it seems that for a periud of time, here, and being a body chosen by the people in which, con- 
and a long period, the legislature designated the schools sequently the public would have confidence, was the best 
which might participate in this bounty. Each religious and most fitting body to designate from time to time the 
denomination provided for the instruction of its own poor; instittitions or schools which should be entitled to receive 
they had provided schools, and their exertions v.'ere- honor- those school monies. This must have been their intention, 
ableand laudable. The legislature granted its aid, and the and yet this has been interpreted 's repealing the law in or- 
respective societies were encouraofed to go on with the good der to deprive those denominations of a legal right (for 
work, and they did go on year after year, and then there right they had, and they could come and demand the mo- 
was never heard that disputation which appears now to be ney) and not a mere transfer of the discretion to give this 
so much dreaded. There was not then heard dissention moneyfroin the legislature, to the Common Couiicil of New- 
betwesn neighbors, or strife between societies ; everything York. Now all this, which is so plain and simple has been 
went on peaceably, and why ? Because the schools and construed by these o'entlemen of the Public School Society 
the citizens were not then charged that relie-ion was a for- as what? As conferring a monopoly upon them. As a 
bidden suhject. Nor should you now roake it a forbidden law disqualifying all religious denominations receiving^^ 
part of education, because on religious principle alone can it. So it has been interpreted. But if it were so, we aslc] 
conscience find a resting-place. It should be made known not for the money on the ground that we are a religious 1 

3 > 

1 



14 



corporation, but of public utility, for the purpose of giv- 
ing an education to a largo and destitute class which 
otherwise will not have the means to procure it. We 
ask it to secure a public advantage, and if the objec- 
tions a nyu-here exist to which I have directed your atten- 
tion, they do not apply to our case. Gentlemen, I think it 
unnecessary to dstaia you auy longer on this subject as re- 
ferred to in this document, because while the question is 
composed of one simple fact, they are arguing against dan- 
gers which do not threaten them. But then they go on to 
say, 

" To prevent in our day and country, the recurrence of scenes so 
abhorrent to every principle of justice, liiimanity, and riglit, the Con- 
stitution of the United States, and of the several States, have declar- 
ed in soma (brin or other, that there should be no establishment of 
religion by law ; that die afliirs of the State should ba kept entirely 
distinct fro.n, and u;ico;inscte 1 with thos? of the Church; that every 
human being should worship God, according to the dictates of his 
own coasc ence ; that all churches and religions should be supported 
by voluntary cona-ibution ; and that no tax should ever he imposed 
for the benefit of any denomination of religion, for any cause, or un- 
der any pretence whitever." 

Ail this is doctrine to which we subscribe most heartily. 
And ivhile we seek to be relieved from the evils under 
which we su^-fer, we do not seek relief to the detriment of 
any other sect. What! is this country independent of re- 
' ligion? Is it a country of Atheism, ur of an Established 
] Religion? Neither the one nor the other; but a country 
j which makes no law for religion, btit places the right of 
I conscience above all other authority — granting equality to 
! all, protection to all, preference to none. And while all 
these documents have gone on the presumption of prefer- 
ence, all we want is that we may be entitled to pvoleclion 
and not preference. We want that the public monc} shall 
not be employed to sap religion in the minds of our chil- 
dren — that they may have the advantagss of education with- 
out the intermixture of religious views with their common 
knowledge which goes to destroy that which we believe to 
be the true religion. Their- is another feature connected 
with this subject — which is the definition given of a public 
school such as should be entitled to this money. " If the 
school money" say these gentlemen — and I must believe 
they are imposed on by a statement which is not correct. 
I believe if they had known the true statement, they would 
not have published in their report such a statement as this: 
" If the School moiey should be divided among the religious deno- 
minations generally, as some have proposed, there will be nothing 
left for the support of schools of a purely civil character; and ii' there 
shou Id be, in such a state of things, any citizen who could not, ac- 
cording to his opinions of right and wrong, conscientiously send his 
child to the school of an existing sect, there would be no public 
school ir which he could be educated. This might, and probably 
would be the case with hundreds of our citizens." 

Now let me for a motnent invite your attention to that 
part of the subject which I have now the honor to submit to 
you; and it is that part on which all these documents go, 
that religious teaching would vitiate all claim to a participa- 
tion in this public fund. A coinmon education then, as 
understood by the State, is a secular education, and these 
documents contend that any religious teaching, no matter 
how slight, will vitiate all claim to a participation in this 
fund. Now the Public School Society in their reports, have 
from time to time stated themselves, and, observe, with a 
consciousness that the jealous eye of the community is upon 
them — they state, still under this restriction, that they have 
imparted religion. Now if this doctrine be correct, they are 
no more entitled to the Common School Fund than others? 
Or is the doctrine correct, and yet one must abide by it and 
not another? Again, these gentlemen charge us with ac- 
cusing them of teaching infidelity, when taking this tax they 
give that education, which, they state to us when we apply 



for a portion of this money, the State contemplates to give 
the scholar — that is, an education without religion Now if 
the child be brought up without religion what is he, if not an 
infidel! "Oh" they say, "we do not teach it." Is it neces- 
sary to teach infidelity? It does not require the active, pro- 
cess. To make an infidel what is it necessary to do? Cage 
him up in a room, give him a secular education from the age 
of live years to twenty-one, and I ask you what he v/ill come 
out, if not an infidel f Whether he will know anything about 
God? And yet they tell you that religious teaching is a dis- 
qualification. ^V'hat will a child be then if you gi\ e him their 
education from his youth up to the age of twenty-one? Will 
he know anything of God, and of a Divine Kedeemer? of a 
Trinity, of the incarnation of the Saviour, and the redemp 
tioa of the world by tlie atoneinent of Christ, or of any of 
thjse grand doctrines which are the basis and corner stone of 
our Christianity? And because we object to a system of 
teaching which leads to practical infidelity, we are accused 
of charging the Public School Society with being infidels. 
They furnish the basis of the charge ; we do not wish to do 
so. Now I ask you whether it was the intention of the Le- 
gislature of New York, or of the people of the State, that the 
public schools should be made precisely such as ttie infidels 
want ? Permit me to say when I use the term infidel, I 
mean no disrespect to those that arc so. I would not be 
one ; but I respect their right to be what they please. A 
tew days ago a gentleman who professes to be one of this 
class, and who would not allow his children to be scholars 
where religion is taught at all, said he could send (hem to 
the public school, for there the education suited him. What 
then is the consequence? That while the public education 
of New York is guarded in such a manner, as to^suit the 
infidel, the children become so. And is there any authori- 
ty in this Board, or of a legislative body at Albany, or is 
there any Board in the Union, with power by the constitu- 
tion, to exclude religion or to engraft it? Neither the one 
nor the other. The infidel says truly that there is no reli- 
gion taught, and therefore he can send his children ; and I 
should like to know why any member of a christian church 
should be forced to do violence to his convictions and not 
be permitted to enjoy equal advantages? If the infidel cau 
send his children to these schools because no religion is 
taught there, and who therefore has to make no sacrifices of 
conscience, why cannot the christian enjoy equal advan- 
tages? They say their instruction is not sectarianism; 
but it is ; and of what kind ? The sectarianism of infideli- 
ty in its every feature. But because it is of a negative 
kind, and they do not admit the doctrines of any particular 
denomination — because they do not profess to teach reli- 
gion, therefore it is suited for all! As a test therefore of 
this principle, give this purely secular knowledge to a young 
man, keep him from intercourse with the rest of the world, 
give him nothing else, and what sort of a man would he be? 
What would be the state of his miud? A blank — a perfect 
blank as to religious impressions. But I contend that it is 
infidelity, and I hope the Public School gentlemen hear 
what I say. But again, I do not charge it on their inten- 
tion, and their assertion is purely gratuitous when they say 
that such an accusation is made against them. Here is the 
observation of the report on this subject: 
» " If reliirious insnucrion is coninninicatcd, it is foreign to the in- 
tentions of the school system, and should be instanlly cibancloned. — 
Relisious instruction is no part of a common school educalion." 

Such then is the nature of that report which, I take leave 
to repeat, has been prepared by the gentlemen who drew i 
up as a committee, under the iinpression fixed on thei 
minds that Catholics want this money to promote their re 
ligion, and that if it were granted to us others would wan 



it for their respective religions also; and on this assumption But though my experience lias not qualified me to enter 
they decided ; but agaiubt this (alse issue I protest, whether into legal matters, yet, as a citizen, I might have the right 
set Ibrth in this report or in the two remonstrances before to express my opinion on the monopoly which this so- 
this Council— one from the Public School Society, and the -eiety claims; and that opinion is contrary to the mono- 
other from the Methodist Episcopal Church. It is not my poly, and not only contrary to their monopoly, simply re- 
business to speak in relation to the Public School Society gavded as a monopoly, but because I believe that a mo- 
at laro-e. Of its history I have taken pains to make myself nopoly of this description should be regarded with 
sufficiently possessed to speak; and I find that in its origin, double jealousy. Why? Bec^iuse this monopoly is of 
so far from disclaiming all connection with religion, so far greater weight than in ordinary cases ; of great weight 
from conceiving religious teaching disadvantageous, it was pecuniarily— for last year the fund amounted to S 1 15,000 
orio-inally incorporated for the purpose of supplying the —because the distribution of that money gives to them 
wants of the destitute portion of the population, and their a patronage which, considering the weakness of human 
petition for a charter set forth nature, is in danger of being used disadvantageously— 

" the benefiis which would result to society tiom the education of because it gives to them privileges of infinitely higher 
such children, by implanting in their minds ihe principles ot'r.ELi- importance than any that can be estimated by dollars and 
cioN and morality." 

At this time every dsnomlnatlon taught its own and re- cents — the privilege of stamping their peculiar character 
ceived an equal portion of the fund from the public authori- on the minds of iliousands and tens of thousands of our 
ties to aid them in their good work, so that their children children. They ought to be men, to discharge the trust 
were provided for, and this society came to gatlier in the of such a monopoly, as pure as angels, and almost im- 
neglected and the outcast — they came as gleaners, after the bued with wisdom from above — such men they should 
reapers had gone through the field, and a most benevolent be, when they would venture to come and stand by the 
purpose theirs was; and their object I repeat, when they mother's side, and say, in effect, "'Give me the darling 
applied to the Legislature was set forth to be — (for they did which you have nourished at your breast — give it to 
not conceal the advantages of a religious education) — to me, a stranger, and I will direct its mind. True, jou 
produce benefits to society by the implanting in the minds are its parent, but you are not fit to guide its youthful 
of such children the principles of religion and morality. — progress, and to implant true principles in its mind ; 
There were children belonging to no denomination, and therefore, give it to me, and give me also the means 
this Society seeing the benefits which would result to socie- wherewith to instruct it." That is the position of that 
ty from the education of such children by Impla ting In society; and they ought to be almost more than men for 
their minds the principles of religion and morality, under- this — as doubtless theyare honorable men in their proper 
took this benevolent work, and covered themselves and the places ; but of that we should have the most satisfactory 
name of their Society with glory by that undertaking. But evidence, that we may be well assured that they are fit- 
it is strange that what then was so advantageous to the com- ted to discharge their duties. It is this consideration 
munlty — the implanting in the minds of children the prin- that brought me here, as the first pastor of a body of peo- 
ciples of religion and morality — should have ceased to be pie, large and numerous as they are known to be ; but 
so now; and that they or their successors should seek to poor as many of them are, and exposed to many hard 
make that very thing a disquilificatlon, and to turn it ships ; they have children with immortal souls, whose con- 
agalnst all denominations of christians, and claim them- ditioii is involved in this question, and if it is an im- 
selves to monopolise tlie fund and the teaching on the prIn- propriety in the clerical character, I would rather under- 
clple that no religion shall be Imparted. Now has the Le- go the reproach than neglect to advocate their rights, as 
gislature seen fit to alter the charter so as to make religious far as I have the power, with my feeble ability, 
teaching a disqualification of all other sects? The catholics of the city of New York may be esti- 

Was it for that purpose that this society, step by step, mated as one fifth of the population ; and when you take 
obtained enlarged privileges, by which not only the ne- account of the class of children usually attending the 
glected children of the community, but those of others, public schools, and consider how many the;e_are in this 
came under their care — that they obtained grants from city ;, who are In affluent circumstances, which enable 
the public treasury and the exchequer of the city, to an them to give an education to their children, who do not 
amountofmanythousandsofdi)llars,untllthesocietyclaims therefore participate In the teaching of the public 
to be the true "and only society, though existing as a pri- schools; and when you cimslder the numbers not at- 
vate corporation, electing its own body, fixing a tax for tending any school at all, I say, of those people, who, 
the privilege of membership, sometimes ,$10, at others by their poverty, are the ol-jects most usnally;composing 
$20, $2-5, and $50, any of which sums is too much for a the number that require the assistance of the common 
poor man to pay ; and out of this organized body elect- school fund, catholics are one third, if not more. And 
ing the trustees to carry on the work. when I see this one third excluded — respecting, as I do, 

I mention this, not to blame them, for they believe they their welfare In this life, as well as tlieir welfare in a 
are doing good, but to show that even with men who are brighter world — then it is that 1 come forward thirs pub- 
honorable in every -day life, how much watchfulness and licly, and stand here to plead for them. I conceive we 
vigilance, how much tact and talent, is used to grasp have our rights in question, and therefore, most respect- 
more and more, till they absorb all, and completely de- fully, 1 demand them from this honorable board, 
prive all others of any participation in the advantages of 1 am not surprised that there should be remonstrances 
controllin"- this fund. against our claim ; but I did hope, in an age as en- 

It Is not my intention, as it is not my peculiar province, lightened as this is, and among gentlemen of known 
to enter into the legal part of the argument ; but I have liberality of feeling, that their opposition would not have 
to regret that the gentleman who did intend to treat it, been characterized as this has been. However, it Is not 
and to whose department it iielonged, has been unfortu- lo me a matter of surprise ; for I believe if some of 
nately prevented by the bursting of a small blood vessel, those gentlemen who consider themselves now as emi- 



16 

nent Christians, had lived at the period when Lazarus and hurried as was ray preparation, that 1 tave not been 

lay languishing at the gate of the rich man, petitioning able to present the sulject before you in that clear and 

for the crumbs that fell from the table, they would have lucid manner that would make it interestino- ; but it was 

sent their remonstrance against his petition. not with that view that I claimed your attention in rela- 

When the methodist episcopal church sent its peti- tion to it ; it was witli far hio-lier motives; and I now, 

tion for a portion of this fund, some eight years ago, with confidence, submit it to your judgment. 

then it was not unconstitutional ! Yet, did the catholics t^^^„^„„ Cr.^^„,.„„ -c / -lu i -ai- 

, . ,, - , -^.viiin .1 • .1 ^ IHEODORE bEDGwicK, ii,sq. (with wliom was Mr. 

send m their remonstrance against It ; \V lien their theo- »- i i ^ n , ^ > -A . ,■ ^ , r. . 

logical seminaries obtained, (and they still receive,) the I^etchum) as Counsel for the Public School Society, then 
bounty of the stale, did, or do, the catholics complain ] addressed the Board and said :— 

Has there been a single instance of illiberality on the Mr. President. — I appear here, with my learned 
part of catholics, or a want of disposition to grant rights friend and associate. Mi-. Ketchum, on behalf of the trus- 
as universal as the nature of man may require? And I tees of the public school society; and I desire, in the outset, 
have been astonished only at this, that good men, wiih for those whom I represent, as well as for myself, to reci- 
good intentions, should prefer to cling to a system, find procate all that the reverend gentleman has said of the 
lo the money raised for its support by the public libe- motives of the parties for whom we respectively appear, 
rality — that they would sooner see tens of thousands of The trustees are animated by no feelincr but a desire to 
poor children contending with ignorance, and the com- promote what they conceive will be for the true interests 
panions of vice, than concede one iota of their monopoly, and welfare of the city ; in which thev are as deeply lute- 
in order that others may enjoy their rights. I say this, rested as any men can be. They have no other interest 
because I am authorized lo say it. than to maintain that which, in thei)' judgment, is right 

And what am I to infer, but, that they prefer the in itself and will be beneficial to the Avhole body. Im- 
Ineans to ihe end. The end designed, is to cunvey pelled by these motives themselves, tbey are willing to 
knowledge to the minds of our children; the means is believe that those who are opposed to them are animated 
the public fund ; and, by refusing to cause the slightest by the same feeling. It is most especially desirable 
variation in their system, they cling to the means, while that, in a case like this, the petitioners should be heard, as 
they leave thousands of children without the benefit they are being heard, in the most solemn manner the 
which the state intended to confer. Tbey may pursue forms of the city government will permit. We have no 
that course, but the experience of the past should have doubt they will be fairly heard ; we are convinced that 
taught them, that while they maintain their present cha- the decision to which you may come, whether for or 
racter, a large portion of their fellow citizens have not — against them, will be righteously pronounced. The 
cannot have — confidence in them. trustees therefore are most anxious that the case should 

"We have not bad confidence in them for years past; be fully examined. What, sir, is the precise question 
and that we have endeavored to supply an education to before usl The petition, if 1 understand it, asks your 
our children ourselves, is sufficient proof that we shall honorable body fin- a civil ordinance — for an ordinance in 
endeavor to supply it for years to come, rather than regard to the application of money. 1 shall therefore waive 
suffer our children to be taught under a system which all reply to that portion of the reverend gentleman's 
makes them ashamed of the religion their fathers opening remarks which relate to the trustees themselves 
profess. . and the Methodist congregation. That part of his aigu- 

But they have said, that, if a portion of this fund is meut has nothing to do with the merits of the case; how- 
given to catholics, all other sects will want it. Then, ever pointed and picpiant it may have been, it has 
let them have it. But I do not see that that is proba- nothing to do with the point which you have to decide; 
ble ; and my reason is this:— they have sent in The trustees here sink into nothing; the petitioners also 
remonstrances against the claim of the catholics, as you disappear from our view ; and the real question remains, 
will see by a reference to document. No. SO, all of which how is the intellectual condition of our children to be 
go to prove, that they are satisfied with the present best promoted 1 On that question two great bodies are 
public school system. And if they are satisfied, and at issue ; and it is especially consonant with our form of 
their children derive benefit from it, let them continue government, that both should be faiily heard ; it is in con^ 
to frequent the schools as they do now. The schools sonance with that principle of our government, which 
are no benefit to catholics now; we have no confidence bases it on iiarmony and compromise, with that respect 
in them ; there is no harmony of feeling- between them which is due even to the opinions of the minority. The 
and us; we have no confidence that those civil and question is now being heard, as it only best can be heard, 
religious rights that belong to us, will be enjoyed, while and all will rest content, -no doubt, with the decision, 
the public school society retains its present monopoly, whatever that decision may be. 

We do not receive benefit from those schools ; — do not. If I understand this application correctly, it is an ap- 
then, take from catholics their portion of the fund, by plication to alter, to modify, or, at any rate, to affect the 
taxation, and hand it over to those who do not give them common school system of this state ; not only of ihe city, 
an equivalent in return. Let those who can, receive sir, for it has a mure extensive bearing ; it is to affect the 
the advantages of these schools; but as catholics cannot, whole system of the state of New Vork, and your ho- 
do not tie them to a system, which is intended for the norable body cannot come to a proper decision of this 
advantage of a class of society of which they form matter unless you bring your minds to the cmisideration 
one third, but from which system they can receive no oftheoiiajin of our system of education, ii ; ;talilish- 
benefit. jiii'ut, dev.-lopmcnt, and extent. i! ■ \-^:. in, .sir, 

There are inr:v nlber topics oonn.Tlpd m.mu :].]■•. ^, ":,- '• ' i.'ji •...,, ■■,. <]:',< .ildir called iie. i: :,' :.\ iiumblc 
ject, to whicli I ii.inht nd\eri ; lull I 111 , ,' . . ' , , ;, , mmI'iTn- I u' ; . ■ i ■ ■ iiruvv, had its 

length of time that 1 have trespassed mi ymir [laiii'iire. iMiinJui ion laid as lailiack a.s ih'-ycai ll.'d. On the Oth 
I feel, unaccustomed as I am to address such a body, of April, [795, an &ct was -passed "Jur t/ie cnccuragemeTif 



If 

9/ public scJwnls," and it is well worth while to know cation. That act was passed in 1814. The system thus 
what was ihe opinion of the legislature which framed established was, as your honors well know, incorporated 
this act, in regard to the kind of education to be com- in the Revised Statutes, which, in 1S30, were made 
municated in the schools which were to rf'ceive its bounty, the code of our state ; and that beautiful fabric still re- 
That act :'ppropriated S20,000 annually for the support mains as it was then fashion.;d — so simple, and yet so 
of those schools in the different counties of the state; in beautiful, I should be loath to see a hand laid upon it. 
which the children should be " instructed in the English The functions of the original superintendent of com- 
lano-uaoe, or be tauMit English grammar, arithmetic, mon schools have been merged in the secretary of state, 
mathematics, and such other branches uf knowledge as but in other respects no alteration has been m;ide. The 
are inost useful and necessary to complete a good iiiig- annual revenue of the fimd is divided among the counties 
lish education." who are compelled to raise by taxation, a suin equal to 

Such was the whole extent and aim of the system as it their respective shares; commissioners were elected, 
was originally founded. It was to give a purely secular and by them the money is appportioned among the 
education. This act was the germ of our present system ; towns, and those, again, are subdivided into districts, and 
but the question was not fully understood, nor its irn- trustees elected to take charge of the school houses, and 
portance sufficiently appreciated; there v/as not sufii- to have th:; imracdiate supervision of the schools, 
cient genial heat in the body politic to develop it; it These trustees, at staled peiiods, (once a year,) make 
was not loiln- acted under, and soon became obsolete. thei; report to tiie commissioners, the commissioMeis to 

In ISOl, another act was passed, "for the encourage- the county clerks, and they, to the superintciulent, now 
mcnt of literature" by which four lotteries were estab- secretary of stale; and thus, is one harmonious system 
lished to aid in the accomplishment of the object; a pure established throughout the stale. In the last report, of 
object, deriving its support from a most impure source, 1S40, it is stated, that but one town in the state has not 
for the proceeds of these lotteries were to be applied to reported during the last year; at the establishnient of 
the support of the common school in such way as the the system, there was great diversity of opinion on the 
legislature min-ht direct. subject — there was gieat languor and indiderence among 

"in 1805, the first step was taken to establish the system the people, and it was long before the towns generally 
on a firm permanent foundation, and then (■2d April) the came to take an intetest in it; it was long before the trus- 
proceeds of t!ie firstSOO, 000 acresofthepubliclauds which tees made regular reports of the matters under their 
should be sold were set apart, to beinvestedasapermanent charge; but, as the last report of the supeiintendentshoxvs, 
fund for the support of common schools for the cduca- there has been a great progress of opinion ; every town, 
tlon of the children of New York. Tliis fund was after- except one, has made its report during the last year, 
wards increased, duringthe years ISOS, '10, and '11, by showing the conriition of its schools. In the year 1795, 
the receipt of the surplus fees of the clerk of the supreme $20,000 were appropriated to the common school 
court, by the proceeds of certain stock in the Merchants' system ; in 1S15, it is calculated by the report of the Super- 
Bank in' this city, and the sums then Howing from lot- iutendeiit, that the capital of the Common School Fund will 
teries, lands, fees, and batdvs, were invested, from time amount to /ire millions of dollars. Tiiese facts alone, Ihcn, 
to time, by the comptroller forthe same object. In ISll, show the certain progress made, not only in the mtans for 
the fund was found to be of a considerable amount, and tlie accomplishment of the object of the system, but in the 
commissioners were appointed to report to the legis- minds and hearts of the people themselves. Fivcmillionsof 
lature, at the next session, how this fund could be best dollars then will be the capital, and two millions will be an- 
appropriated, and also to prepare a system for the orga- iiually expended for tlic education of the citizens of the 
nizatiDU and establishment of common schools. They State of New York I — U ,7v G districts have reported, and 
accordingly reported, and, in IS 1 2, (10th June,) the first 557,229 children are actually under instruction in ihe.?o 
general act was passed, which laid tuc foundation, broad schools! Now I suppose, having reference to the magni- 
and deep, of the present system. tuJc of the State and to its population and resources, it 

That act directed, in general ternrs, that, as soon as may most safely be affirmed there is no such system for (he 
the revenue from the school fund should amount lo education of the poorer classes of any country in the uni- 
$30,000, it should be appropriated among the different verse — no system of this grandeur, by which the people take 
counties of the state ; commissioners and inspectors care that the people shall be educated — made coinpetcut to 
were to be elected by the towns, to expend the amount discharge those duties, without which the form and Ihbiic of 
awarded to them; and ti-ustees of the school districts our government area mockeiy. This is the geuerai system 
were also chosen to carry out the scheme. throughout the Stale. Novv^ let us examine more particu- 

But in the first act a provision was inserted — ^nud it is larly those features which relate ii this city, with which at 
important in regard to the whole cominon school system this time we are more imm.ediately concerned. In 1813, 
to bear it in mind — that the towns and counties were the first act to which I have alluded, extended its pi cvisions 
not compelled to contribute to the expense of education t) this city; and it is somewhat remaikable that ll e Lcgis 
at all. Such only as voluntarily accepted the system lature then drew a line between the population of this city 
and t.rxed themselves lo a similar amonnb, were permitted and of the country, and required (he city to levy a (ax for 
to receive any portion of the fund. But if they chose lo this object, before it required the country population to do 
disregai'd the matter altogether, they we e at liberty so so. In 1S14, as I have already said, the system was applied 
to do. The next ye ir, this error — for so it seems the le- to the entire Stale, and all connSies were required to raise 
gislature. deemed it — was corrected. The towns and by taxat'orr an amount eq;\al to their poiticn of the ';iiid. 
counties w.^rc c:-.npeiic.i to adujjt the system, and the Bv t'at 3ci, cerhiin scl'co's weie specified as ihe iccipieuts 
supervisni's were directed tu tax lire towns lo the amount oF ihi^ Comrron School i'und, and r uch o'.l'er ineo: pe rated 
of rhe ii'iin. 11 loin a'.Kiited to them from die school find, re' gious scciclies as (lien Mippnitcd choi it v uhi ^ok. Iir 
Tiiey did lnen wiiit they had not defore dared to do. — 1824, ihi; act was repealed, anj the Comir.on Council was 
They taxed the people directly for the purposes of edu- authorized, once in throe years, to de-signaie the instltuticns 



IS 

and schools which f:hould be entitled to receive the school that instruction, without which he is a firebvand in the 
monies. At'ter the passage of this act, a petition IVom a mid it of a magazine." This matter, therefore, no longer 
great portion of the property owners ol this city was pre- admits of argument. The question to be argued here is 
sented to the Legislature, praying leave to raise by taxation not whether the lather and the mother are the best judges of 
on this city and county, a further sum, besides that already the interests of the child in this point of view — if so, we are 
required ol' them, for the same purpose of educating- the cast on the sea of abstract discussion. We must assume 
destitute poor. I claim no peculiar- merit for them in so something: we must take something for graiited. The 
doing, but they are at least cut. tied to the credit, such as it postulate m this case is, ''the St-ate requires its children to 
is, of comprehending their own interest. They saw that have some ivind of education." What kind then shall that 
the education of the poor was essential to their own we!- be? Is the present system the best, or shall we have some- 
fare. Perhaps this is the only instance on record of citi- thing new, and repudiate that, which tlie experience of thirty 
zens soliciting the favor of being taxed. It was granted — years has sanctioned aud approved] Ihere are three kinds 
and the Corporation was then authorized to impose a spe- of education which the Slate might give. There is the 
cial tax on this city for the support of schools. And what purely secular education, such as the first act, to which I 
has since been the developement of this system in this city? have referred, contemplates; such as the master gives to an 
In the year 1S3S, s$34,0IjU were received from the School appr-iutice. This secular education may be better or 
Fund — $3i,0C0, or an equal amount to that received, were worse, more or less extensive. The child may be taught 
raised under the compuLory clause of the school system to read aud write, and may be given what is called by the 
acts, and $73,U00 in addition were raised by this volun- State "a purely English education." There is another 
tary taxation ; so that the annual revenue of the fund in kind of instruction the infant may be imbued with — those 
controversy, exceeds $140,001 — no trifling sum to be dis- lundamentalprinciplesofmorals,about which there is no dis- 
tributed by this municipal body. Now, if you please, what putj — at least not in this country, nor in any part of chris- 
is the tendency of this system? its practical ctfect — its tandom — about which the body which the reverend gentle- 
mode of tuition — the nature of its instruction? In the first man represents, and we Protestants all equally agree; as to 
place, there is no law on the subject. The reverend gentle- the moral coda of Christianity there is no material dili'er- 
man has said that if the prayer were granted, tlney would ence of opinion among us. But, beyond that, there is still 
conform to Ihe provisions of the law — he was willing that another branch of instiuction which is properly called reli- 
the body whiih he represents should apply the fund as the g'ious, and it is because those two phrases — "religious" and 
law directs. But the law makes no provision in the mat- "moral" — have been used occasionally without an accurate 
ter. If the Koran was taught in a common school, the law apprehension of their signification, that the documents of 
would Hot interfere — the law would not shut the school ; it the trustees ha\'e been misconstrued. But when the term 
mu^t be got at in some other way. This, the very essence "moral" education is used, it only means that education 
of the matter, was let't, and doubtless intentionally left to which instructs the children in those fundamental tenets of 
the people of the State and to this honorable body: through- duty which are the basis of all religion; it does not mean 
out the State the people elect their officers for the manage- that sectarian or dogmatic teaching which constitutes w-hat 
meiit of these schools; here it is done through this body, is more properly termed a "religious" education. The 
who are elected by the people. You then, who are the ic- common schools have meant from the begirning to teach 
presentatives of the people, decide to whom this fund shall the children the great moral precepts — " Thou shalt not 
be distributed. ]Sow at the outset the question may arise, steal — thou shalt not lie" — and others; butf.icy have not in- 
and a great portion of the remarks of the reverei.d gentle- tended to teach either Episcopalianism, or Methodism, Ca- 
mau compel a notice of it — whether the education of the tholicism, or Unitarianism, for from that controversial 
people is a proper subject of governmental concern. If I leaning they have intended — and if I understand the system, 
understand the arg-ument of the reverend gentleman, it the Legislature intended — that the schools should keep aloof, 
tends to the negative of this proposition. 'When he says It never can be imparted without involving the parents 
the trustees of our public schools "take the children from and the children in bitter disputes endless in their nature, 
Iheir mother, deprive the parents of their o(Jsjmng" I un- whose inevitable elTect would be to exasperate the minds of 
derstand him to say — and it is not the first time by any the parents towards each other, and be either useless, or po- 
meaiis that this question has been mooted — that the State has sitively injurious to the children. A religious education, 
no right to interfere — that the matter should be left to the pa- properly so called, no man can undervalue; if a moral 
rent — that the State should not interpose between the father education is given, the other invaluable inttnictiou must be 
and his child. If that argument is sound, then the whole superadded; but the State does net intend to give it. The 
system should be abolished — if the State ought not to inter- State intends to give a "secular" and moral, but not a reli- 
fere at all, taxation (or this object must be done away with, gious education — the State does not intend to give a secta- 
and no further sums should be levied, and the school fund, rian education, and that is precisely what, if I apprehend 
guaranteed by the constitution, should so back into the ge- correctly, the reverend gentleman does intend to give. — 
neral coffers. But, right or wrong, su"ch is not the under- Such as I have described is the character of the instiuction 
standing of the people of this State. They have said that in this State ; and that of the city is in harmony with it. — 
there is a portion ol' every population that does not suffi- It is a system, I repeat, Dy which it is intended to confer a 
ciently appreciate the advantages of education, voluntarily secular and moral education. It has been thought ihat for 
to secure them; they know, or think that they know by ex- the purposes of moral teaching, the Bible contains that in 
perieuce, that such parents, unless compelled, will nut pro- which all sects can agree; from which no sect can dissent, 
perly attend to the interests of the child, and therefore the ^"w what is the prayer of the petitioners? I suppose it is 
people of the State say, "we will interfere— no man shall haidly necessary in this age and in this country, to deny 
come up to his majority and claim the rjo-hl of voting with- any feeling of hostility to Catholics. If there is one Iceling 
vjut that education, which shall prepare him, at Ica-t m pait, flat has spread more than another throughout this countiy, 
to exercise that right, llo shall have at least a portion of' it is one of religious toleration — it is that this country was 



designed and was provided as an asylum for the oppressed testants : in other words, that religion is taught to them. I 

of other countries. It has been so most foitunately for the leave it to the reverend gentleman to reconcile these propo- 

Catholics of Ireland, and the poor peasant ot the lihine. — sitions for the pui poses of his aigumeut — for the puiposes 

There is no feeling of hostility to the Catholic as such; JLtiU of mine it is suliicient that neither of them is tenable, 

less to the foreigner as such. There was a time when Ca- One is false in point of reasoning, and the other in point 

tholicism and Christianity went hand in hand, when their of fact. 

fellowship was broken by no jar nor schism; when all were And now we approach the citadel, the centre of the dis- 
Catholics. One of the best men who has ever adorned this cussion. Now as to this matter the petitioners ask your 
country, was Bishop Cheverus, of Boston, one of the few honors to pass a civil ordinance ; the first question that 
who achieved a wide spread reputation by mere acts of pri- suggests itself is, have your honuis the power to make the 
vate benevolence. And while we can turn to such men as appropriation asked for'f The Committee of the Board of 
adorning the Catholic Church, it cannot be that there is any Assistants have already intimated their opinion that no such 
hostility to them, as a sect ; if there be, most assuredly I am power rests here ; that this application, if made at all, should 
not its mouthpiece ; and while I repudiate all feeling of hos- be presented 'o the legislature : and the Board of Assi ttants 
tility to tlie petitioners, this I will further say, I would not have intimated the fuither opinion that the legislature has al- 
for a moment lend my feeble aid to the public school sys- ready passed upon this verv question. That the Board of As- 
tern, if it were actuated or marked by intolerance or hostdi- sistantsare right there is, i venture to affirm, no doubt. The 
ty to Catholics, if it did not maintam a perfect impartiality act of 1813, by which the legislature undertook to direct how 
among all sects. I conceive that this is not a subject to the School Fund should be applied in this city, apportioned 
argue as counsel, from a brief: unless I were satisfied it among the trustees of the Free School Society, now the 
that the compliance with this petition would be dangerous Public School Society, the Orphan Asylum Society, the 
to the whole system, as a lawyer, I would not say a syllable Economical School, the African Free School, and such in- 
in the matter — I would never on such u subject aigue cnrporaled yelii^-ious Socielics as now support or thereafter 
against my deliberate conviction as a counsel for hire. — shall establish Charity Schools or may apply for the tame. 
The professional man must here be merged in the citizen, That act, beyond any que^t;on, gave this "body power to 
and it is only as such that I desire to be heard. make the appropriation now asked for. The chuiches 
If this matter, however, is properly considered, there can acted under it and claimed their share of the School Fund, 
be no pretence for making it hinge on Catholicism or for On the Sth of February, lt22,an act was passed for t'e re- 
awakening the violence of religious schisms; although a lief of the Bethel Baptist Chuich of the city of New-Yoik. 
portion of the Catholics, at this moment, are the most pro- That congregation went begging to Albany, as other con- 
minent petitioners of the most numerous body which de- gregations will go if this wretched system shall be iutio- 
manJ a change of the system, yet in point of fact they are duced, and asked leave to apply that part of their share 
not more affected by it than others. The other denomina- which was not wanted for teachers to the erection of school- 
tions say, "We are satisfied with the present order of houses. The act was passed and its natural consequences 
things and with the education conferred, but if 301 give a ensued. The teachers were underpaid and false receipts 
portion of these funds to one sect to be administered by their were used in order to facilitate and conceal the increase of 
hands, wc shall claim our share also." So long as you give the property of the corporation. Here a gross fraud was 
a secular education combined with moral instruction perpetrated— that fraud was discovered, and it led to a 
alone, and steer entirely clear of all doctrinal or sectarian change in the system. The Nineteenth Annual Report of 
principles all are satisfied, but the moment an apprehension the School Society contains all the documents and proofs 
exists that a part of this great fund goes to increase the on the subject. It is suffici.pnt for our present puipose tha 
numbers and the power of o.'if particular sect, that moment the fact of the deception was proved to the satisfaction of 
the others will eagerly strive to check what they believe a the Common Council of the city, and of the Icgisla- 
pernicious influence, and to check it in the same way. ture. The Common Council took the matter up and ad- 
At present these sects tacitly consent to the system pursued dressed a memorial signed by Mr. Paulding, then Mayor, 
by the trustees, because the Common School is now lite- to the legislature, for the repeat of the act under which the 
rally a « Comjiio;;. ,S'c/ioo/," a neutral institution; but give (Vxnd was appropriated to religious societies in the city. 

a portion of this fund to promote the interests of that sect They say 

and others will that instant press in demanding their equal " The quesiion for the determination of the Lc^islatuie, at this 

share. Those demands von will not be able to resist. I time, is presumed to be, whel tier the Free School Society fliall he 

am not speaking of any speculative matter; )-ou have. Sir, ^^^^^^^^^t^l^:;' ::C.<^::;r:^-'^ 

petitions couched in these very terms, and it you answer tlie lelisious societies slvdl take it out of its Imnds, and the j^oor be 

the Catholic in the affirmative, you cannot give a negative educated in sectaiinn schools. 

to the other claimants. Consider then for a moment the " irreligious socici^ies are to be ilie only participa-ors of the poi- 

' „a'„ I- (• .I,- A 'V 11 »i * u T • 1 J 4U !• J tion of she school iiind lor the ciiy of P»cw-Yorl<, a spirit n| rivaliy 

eSect of this. Alter all the sects have divided the fund ,vi!l, it is ihoujbt, be exc ted bctWeen diff-rcnt sects, which will /o 

among themselves what is to become of the children ot that to disturb the harmony of socieiy and which will early infuse strong 

large class who are of no sect, or at least who wish no sec- pnjudices in the minds of Children lausht in the di'iTjrent schools, 

tai-ian education to be given? Are they to be left utterly Moreover your memorialists would suj^gcst to yom-l,o„oraljle body 

, ,-, , , rn 1 ■ • • ■ x-1 { ^i, i ii ■ ■ 1- vvhethcr the school fund of the State IS not purely ot a cuil character 

destitute ! 1 he conclusion is irresistible, that this is a dl- Jesisncd for a civil purpose ; and whether, therefore, the entiusting 

rect attempt to subveit the whole Comn on School system, of itlo rehsious or ecclesiaFtcal bodies is not a violaiion of an ele- 

The grounds taken by the petitioners are two-fold. If I un- mentary pr,ncii)le .n the j.olitics of the State and country."'— 19i/i 

derstand them correctlv, thev are totally at variance and Sep J,/ Free School Socciy. i..,,„kiv,-p 

,.,, .,, /' ,, - ,, ■ ,1 , ,1 1 r Upon that memorial a Committee ot tr.e Assembly le- 

incompatible with each other. One is, that the dogmas of ', t.-ii t „i fi, , a .* ;,^ ,„oc«;nn Tbot "r!^r^nlt 

,• ■ ,- . , 11 1 • .1 , 1 1 • potted a hill to repeal the Act m cuestion. inat i\epou 

religion, or re i^ion pvoperlv so called, is net taught m "^ ^ ..,,.,, .'^ 

<!.„ I I I Tiv, . I, .*u' J .1 II .1 contains the follswing passage : 

the,e schools, but thatwhatthe reverend gentleman calls fte , ^,j^^_.^ .^^ however, one cental principle cor.nected whh ibis 

sectarianism of infidelity is propagated in them. Another subject, of no' ordinaiymnsmiiudp, 10 which lie Ccmmitice -.vculd 

objection to the system is, that the children are made Pro- beg leave to call tha attention oftl e house. 



20 



" It appenrs that the city of New- York is the only part oi'the State 
wlu re llie School FnnH is at all subject to the coiiirol ol religious 

soeiclies. Th.s lii; : :^ ' - -!■'■' 'I ^y yciir Comniiuce |>iin ly ot a 
ciVilchji-Lu-icr, a-i-l I . i • i, ,; >. . r uu j;,i, lii tlu ir munuM, lu pass 
into the hands oiyMiy • ui um 1,,, ,„■ s.m «I men, wliu are iiui dneetly 
araeiVihle to the coasliluicd civd auihoiities at the govcnunent, and 
hound to re]ioit lhe:r proceedings to the public. \ our Committee 
ibibcar m this place to enter fully into tins branch of the subject, hut 
they respoctfiiliy submit whether it is not a violation of a fundamen- 
tal principle ol'our legislation, to allow funds of the Stale, raised uy 
a tax on the citizens, tlcsienod lor civil purposes, to be suljjct to the 
control of any religious corporation.' — iJth .'Jiinual Rep. of Free 
School Socielijlp. 5]. 

Upon that memorial and report, both holding this lan- 
guage, the act was passed tnider which yoin- honors are now 
called upon to graitt the claim of the petitioners oti whose 
behalf the reverend gentleman has just addressed you. On 
the 19th of November, 1824, this law was enEicted, entitled 
"An act relating to Coinmon Schools in the City of IVevv- 
York," by which it is provided that — 

" The Iiislilulions or Schools which shall be entitled to receive the 
school monies, shall, from time to time, and at least once in three 
years, be designated by the Corporation of this city ia Common 
fc^uncil convened." 

Now I ask your honor, since statutes were first formed 
was ever a Church designated in legal language as an "htsii- 
tulioii" or a "School !" That act then, coupled with that 
memorial and report on which it was based, compels the 
conviction that it was the intention of the legislature — if 
my mind is not clouded by the views T have takeit on the 
subject it is as clear as the sun at noon-day that the legis- 
lature intended, that this fund should be divided amongst 
"Institutions and Schools," and to be appropriated to the 
purposes of education — of civil, secular education, not of 
religious sectarian instruction. V/e are now then after 
the lapse of only fifteen years, arguing before this honor- 
able body the very question which v.'as argued and decided 
ao'ainst these pet.tltioners, and that not abstruse or compli- 
cated, but one of the simplest 'in the very primer book of 
liberty. The only question which can by possibility be 
raised on this branch of the case is the change in the phra:je- 
ology adopted in the Revised Statutes, vol. i. p. 483, (ad. 
ed.) where instead of the words "Institutions or Schools," 
the words " Socir.tiss or Schools" are substituted. That 
certainly is not the language of the act of 1S24 — it is not 
as clear language as that used in the original act, but it is 
very apparent that the revisers chatiged the lai^gunge with- 
out intendiug to chancing the purpoit of the provision. 
Your honors are well aware that where any change of our 
Statute Law was considered necessary by ttie revisers, where 
an old enactment was altered or a new provision was in- 
troduced, it is uniformly accompanied hy a note to show 
the reajon for the alteration. Kut there is I'lO note nor 
comment whatever on this passage. Your honors are 
equally well aware that the revisers did for the simplilication, 
and as tliey no doubt considered the improvement, of the 
law, sometimes change the phraseology of our Statutes, to 
make it more cleo'ant or precise; that is the reason w]-,y 
thoy here have substituted the word "jSocietios" for "Insti- 
tutions." It is not to be suppo-ed that they could delibe- 
rately revert to the exploded enactment, which existed prior 
to 1S21, without note or comment, explanation or reason, 
to show why they had re-established a systein once pto- 
nou.nced perniciotis. As a ur.fiiir of law, therefore, I af- 
firm withoii't hesitation thi-; om"- tinn has been passed upon 
by the le^i-iat'iro.and that the sovereign power has removed 
from t!iis honorable body the ricvt or authority to apportion 
this fund among religious societies. If sve are right in this 
part of the discussion we might stop here. If this ground 
15 well taken the petition must unquestionably be rejected. 
Your honors cannot act for want of jurisdiction. But sup- 



pose us to be wrong— put out of view the act of 1824, ard 
consider the question as it presents itself on general prin- 
ciples, as if we were to argue it before a committee of the 
legislature. How have your honors acted on this subject 
already ] The present disposition of the School Fund is 
among the Public School Society, the Mechanics' Society, 
the Orphan Asylum, tlie Harlrem School, the Mauhattan- 
ville School, the Yorkville School, the Catholic Benevolent 
Society, the New-York Institution for the Blind, the Half 
Orphan Asylum, the Association for the Benefit of Colored 
Orphans in New- York. Of these the most prominent is 
the Public School Society, the utility and benefits of which 
it is impossibk to extol too highly, but «hose power the 
reverend gentleman most egregiously exaggetattd. \\hut 
arc its powers 1 In 1SU5 this Society was incorporated by 
the legislature under the name of " Tlie Socieiij for Esla- 
blishJiig a Free School in the Ciltj oj J^^ew-York, for ihe 
Education oj such Poor Children as do not belong to or 
are provided for by any Relig-iuvs Sociehj." In relation to 
the original petition on which She chatter was granted on 
which the reverend gentleman has commented, it is suffix 
cient to obser\e, that at that time no school fund existed, 
and the petitioners might ask leave to give religious educa 
tion or any other species of education; whether wise or not, 
that petition has no connection with the apjilication of tile 
Common School Fund. In IStS the power of thttt Society 
was extended to all children who were proper objects of 
giafuiious education, and the name was changed to " The 
Free School Socicly of Ncw-Yoik." On the feth of Janu-. 
aiy, 1S26, it was altered to "The Puljlic School Society, 
by which name it is still known. The yearly income of 
this "inagnificei.t incorporation" so " dangerous to the li» 
bellies of the people" is limited by its charter to $10,000 
per annum. This Society has been called, by the reverend 
gentleman, a "monopoly." I did not expect to receive to 
niglit a I'sson on the evils of monopolies. 

That subject, we pretty thorouehly discussed seme years 
since, as you, Mr. President, no doubt well recollect. That 
discussion was carried on here by one of the most upright 
and boldest spirits that ever inhabited a mortal frame. It 
is foreign to litis subject, bat I shall never forego any op- 
poituuity of commemorating with my faint praise the name 
of William Leggett. But this Society, sir, is net ene of 
those huge political engines wliich wc were then tauglit to 
dread — a Society incorporated under a gcneial sttttute, the 
privileges of which are open to all; the only object of which 
is to supply education to the poor; the annual income of 
which is limited to $10,(_iOi.), is not, I need not assure your 
honors, such a "dangerous monopoly" as should exclude it 
from popular (avor. It is just such a monopoly, just such 
a monster, if the reverend gentleman likes the phrase better, 
as any one of the churches whic'i he represents. Some 
better gr-iund of objection must be found than that this in- 
cotporafion is a '•'monopoly." The argument of the rcr 
verend gentleman has ceitainly the merit of flexibility, but 
it stretches too far : he sets out with the ptopusition that this 
Society inculcates scctaiianism, 'cut when he found that 
would be turned asrainst liiin, he goes on the other tack aud 
charges them with infidelity. Not quite satisfied with either 
of these, he starts the ceitainly novel accusation that it is a 
inonopoly, aud finally he insist? that the Society has net the 
confidence of the people. As to this matter, like most 
others, facts speak louder than words. A statement has 
been recently prepared in relation to the children taught in 
these schools, which shows th.e nature of their efietfs on the 
po^tilation of this city. The report not only gives the nuiTi» 
ber of the children taught, but the occupation of the parents 



21 

has been carefully set down, and a single glance at it will consciences will not permit them to send their children 
show what class of society is most interested in the support there. I am by no means disposed to under-rate the force 
of this "dangerous monopoly." Of 16,000 childien, no of this objection : if I oppose this application it is with no 
less than 1,468, or about one-tenth, are the children of la- desire to achieve a paltry triumph over the petitioners or the 
borers; 1461, or nearly another tenth, are the children of reverend gentleman himself. Our object is that which 
vv'idows; 945 shoemakers ; 502 cabinet-makers; 416 .ia- actuates him — it is the wish that the children of the poor be 
sons; 579 tailors; 493 blacksmiths; while of clei-gy men educated — to give them that which the petitioners say they 
there are but 13; of doctors 44 ; lawyers 25; and the gen- are striving to obtain. If there is anything in our system 
tlemm figure in the list to the amount of 26. This is the which, rightly considered, prevents their enjoyment of its ad- 
proportion in which the children of the different classes en- vantages, the system is in that respect wrono-. If a large 
joy the benefits of education from the Public School So- body of our citizens cannot (in fact and for good reasons) 
ciety. The reverend gentleman's assertion that the Society participate in the advantages of our public free education, 

has not the confidence of the public, is somewhat answered that education is on a wrong footing is radically wong' 

by this statement. But if it were otherwise, should it be But the question is after all, one of fact. Is the ground on 
thought strange, and would it be singu'ar if the same elo- which they prevent their children from going to these 
quent voice which we nave heard this night, is constantly schools well taken] What then is the reason which they 
raised to deter one large and important class of the people assign? As I have said, the objections resolve themselves 
from entering those common schools, arousing the preju- into too — and these two are totally incompatible and incon- 
dices of the poorer part of our population as to the motives sistent with each other. One branch of the objection is 
of the Society and the character of its instruction ? But it that the instruction is purely secular. This has been urged 
is not true. In point of fact they have the confidence of the not only in the argument of the reverend Gentleman, but 
people to a most remarkable extent. the same view of the subject is presented in "the docum'ents 

This institution has organized 98 schools ; expends an- presented to this Board. It is there stated in various forms 

nually about $130,000, and is, as I have said, the principal that religion is excluded — that religion is not taught that 

agent of the common school education in our city This the instruction is purely secular, and that the children grow 
institution has in its instruction, most sedulously confined up infidels in consequence. That is alleoed to be the- ten- 
ifself to a secular and moral education, and most scrupu- dency of the schools. Such is the first objection. Now 
lously eschewed every thing of a sectarian tendency. It is what is the other, or the other head of this same objection, 
against this institution that these petitions are most espe- That the Bible is used by the pupil "wiihovt note, or com- 
cially aimed. mmi" — that the schools are totally Protestant in their bear- 

To. come back to the other recipients of the school fund, ing, and tend to undermine the Catholic faith. One of 

The Haarlaem, Hamilton, Manhaltanville, and Yorkville these positions is, I suppose, with great respect, untenable 

schools, as well as the African and Mechanics Society, are a child cannot well grow up a Protestant and an Infidel at 
I believe proper free schools, some of them devoted to par- the same time. On which does the gentleman rely for the 
ticular classes of society, but all confining themselves to great responsibility he assumes in dissuading his parishion- 
secuiar moral education — steering clear of sectarianism m ers from availing themselves of these schools. The Bible 
every shape. The other institutions do in some shape or without " note or commentV Is this' the objection? Whose 
other convey religious instruction, and as such are exccp- "notes" or "comments" I pray does he intend to introduce 
tions to the general rule. into our common schools? Is it possible that the Bible 

A report was not long since (I think in 1833) made by cannot in this day and generation be trusted in the hands 
the Board of Assistants against the claims of these latter es- of our American children? If the whole Bible cannot be 
tablishments, on the ground — the same we now urge — that used, cannot such extracts from it be compiled as will sa- 
this fund is intended for the purposes of secular education, tisfy all parties? This has been the course actually adopted 
and that those institutions, such as the Orphan Asylum, no by the trustees. They habitually use a volume composed 
matter how excellent they may be — no matter how much of selections from the Bible. Cannot these selections be 
good they may effect, do not come within the pale of those made so as to satisfy all sects ? The real tendency of the 
educational establishments to which it was intended that reverend gentleman's reasoning in this matter, cannot be 
this fund should be devoted. Unfortunately t'le views of the appreciated without recollecting the difference between the 
report did not prevail. Your honors have already gone be- Catholic and Protestant Bible. I do not intend to draw 
yond the intention of the Legislature and the Constitution any parallel between the texts of the translation which we 
— and have already erroneously granted aid to institutions use, and that of the Douay or the Catholic Bible. All our 
which do not strictly come within the original design of the early associations are so interwoven with our own version. 
Common School System. But is this to be established as that it would be no easy matter to give the Catholic trans- 
a precedent? I think not. The grants to these institutions, lation a fair and impartial judgment, as far as the richness, 
of small amount and little consequence, will hardly serve as beauty, and force of stvle is concerned ; but on one point 
a pretext for breaking up the system altogether. The ap- surely we of the Protestant faith cannot claim any superi- 
plication now before you is, that your honors will be pleas- ority. In the moral teaching: of the two versions there is 
ed to designate, as among the schools entitled to participate no considerable difference; m the doctrinal points there are 
in the Common School Fund, St. Patrick's School, St it is true, some important discrepancies. Where the word 
Peter's School, St. Mary's School, St. Joseph's School, St. repent is used in our edition, in the Catholic it is d- pe- 
James' School, iSt. Nicholas' School, Transfiguration nance ; for the ivords daily bread, in the Catholic edition, 
Church School, and St. John's School. are substituted supersubstantial bread; but the great moral 

Now, if your honors please, what is the ground of this pe- precepts (I speak now of the teaching of our Saviour) are 
tition? First, that the Catholics, who, as represented by the the same. How can it be otherwise? We are all chris- 
reverend gentlemen, pay taxes equally with all other citi- tians ; either Bible is the code of Christ ; but as the reve- 
zens, cannot enjoy the benefits of the schools, because their rend gentleman has said, it is the " notes and comments" 

8 . 



22^ 

which distinguish the Catholic from the Protestant edition; might convince 'your honors how far they have gone to 

it is to the edition without note or comment that the objec- meet what they considered the well-founded lemonstiar.ces 
tion exiits. This objection is a luud^nienlal one in prm- of the Catholics. They have expurgated whole passages of 
ciple. The Catholic Bible is filled with maiginal notes text from some books, and in other instances have pasted 
which inculcate dogmas proving or seeking to prove doc- two leaves together so as to annihilate completely the objec- 
trinal points — Transubstantiation, for instance; or the ne- tionable passages until a new edition can be procured. — 
cessity of the Fasts and Penance. Now for the purposes of This has been done too, notwithstanding the refusal of the 
this ai-gument, the truth of these doctrines is not of the Catholic authorities to give the least aid, and surely it is not 
slightest impoitance. I do not care whether Piotestant or fair when this has been done to insist that these gentlemen 
Catholic be right. The question is not one of sectarian were blameable for not discovering these passages sooner, 
dogmas, but of education. The difference is not as to the I repeat, it is not common fairness. 

justice or correctness of the "notes and comments," but as They have offered to make the books unobjectionable to 
to the propriety of using any — whether our children shall be Catholics — they have asked the gentlemen who now com- 
taught to love their neighbors, and not to lie, and not to plain, to lay their fingers on those passages which are ob- 
steal, or whether their young minds shall be occupied with jectionable, and they have promised that they should be 
the pros and cons of Transubstantiation, Penance, and struck out. But all co-operation and assistance has been 
Fasts. Mankind has never disagreed as to the propriety of refused. There is one other branch of the question, as re- 
robbing, or cheating, or bearing false witness, but about gards the conduct of the School Society of no little import- 
these dogmas, these doctrines, the race has been cutting ance. The schools during the week are under the control 
each others throats for the last ten centuries. For the last of the School Society, but on Sundays they have been used 
four centuries these doctrines have dyed Europe with blood, as Sunday Schools by such religious societies as would 
It is these recollections — these reminiscences which have pay for the fuel and take charge of the building. This pri- 
dictated our legislation on this subject. It is these prodi- vilege has been tendered to the Catholics. They have been 
gious evils that American statesmen have striven to avoid, told, " If you will avail yourselves during the week-days of 
This is the evil which the trustees believe they see in the the Public Schools you may have the use of the buildings 
application now made, and in behalf of both Catholics and on Sundays to give such religious education as you see fit, 
Protestants, they implore you to reject this petition. They and you may use the Douay Bible or the Missal." No- 
have confined themselves in the instruction given in these thing surely can be fairer or more impartial than to place 
schools to that which they believe is in co formity with the all the sects on an equality during the week, and on Sun- 
intentions of the State — a secular education — reading and days to use them as they choose i'or religious purposes, 
writing, and the rules of arithmetic, with such instruction There is but one other branch of the reverend gentleman's 
on the precepts of the Bible as they did suppose all persons remarks to which it will be nesessary to refer ; that is, as 
calling themselves Christians could agree in. If this is to the character of the schools, for which a share of the fund 
wrong, the trustees are wrong altogether, and something is now demanded. The reverend gentleman insists that 
else must be substituted. If a moral education is not of they will not be sectarian schools; but this must be so; 
itself sufficient, if it is not the only proper education for our they can be nothing else from the nature of the case. The 
free schools, something else must be substituted. The re- schools are attached to their Churches, they are within the 
ligious, the doctrinal, the sectarian education they have sound of the chaunt, almost within reach of the altar ; and 
hitherto left to the fireside, to the parents, to the Sunday if sectarian schools are not to be established what is the 
school. They do not pretend to give it ; they do not pre- object of their establishment at all? If the objection to the 
tend by the use of the Bible to teach more than that moral existing schools is that they convey no religious instruction, 
code which every class of Christians, whether Catholic or and these schools are intended to obviate such objections, 
Protestant, they conceived would unite to give. In these what kind of education, I beg, will be given? What, to be 
matters it is worth while to look at the experience of other sure, but the teaching of the Catholic faith. The very 
countries. Ths same confioversy that has arisen here, has ground — the whole foundation of their petition is that 
arisen also in Ireland; but there — in a country torn by re- tlie schools ought to convey religious education; and 
ligious schisms — and I state a fact well known to the reve- do they not in the schools which they niean to establish in- 
rend gentleman, both Protestants and Catholics have united tend to convey religious instiuction, and you need not be 
in a selection of extracts to be used, some from our ver- told by me that it will be a Catholic education, a purely 
sion, some from the Douay Bible. I do not say that this Catholic — a sectarian education. If you, gentlemen, are 
could be adopted here, but I do say there is some neutral prepared to lend your funds and your authority to such a 
ground on which both paities can meet. I do not pretend scheme, you have only to say the word. The trustees of 
that the scheme of the trustees is wholly unexceptionable, the Public Schools, and the gentlemen who compose the 
but I do say that vastly greater defects must be discovered Public School Society hope the result of this applicatioa 
in it t'lan have yet been pointed out, to justify its abandon- will be such as will bring the children into the schools, 
mcnt — and that with all its imperfections on its head, it is Their object is, that the children shall be educated. If 
a thousand told belter than what is now proposed as its sub- there is anything in the objection made as to the character 
stitute. As to the other branch of this double-headed objec- of the schools or the lessonl? taught therein, let a committee 
tion, that the books used in the schools are hostile to Ca- be appointed by your honors from your own body to inves- 
tholics, and promote the Protestant interest- if they are so tigate the subject. If any well-founded cause of complaint 
tl>ey ought to be expurgated ; and if they cannot be satis- exists it will doubtless be removed. But until it is esta- 
factorily expurgated, the books themselves ought to be aban- blished by better proof than we have here, that these schools are 
doned and their places supplied by others. The trustees objectionable, and by better argument than we have this 
have viewed this matter in the same light — they have done night heard, that the public funds should be devoted to feed 
all in their power to remove the Catholic objection s^o far the fires of religious fanaticism, surely your honors will Dot 
as it e.xists. I regret that the books are not here that I abandon these long-established and excellent institutions. 



as 

Hiram Ketchum, Esq., spoke as follows ; meetings were held, we should have supposed that they wers 

Mr. Chairman, political meetings, and that possession of the Hall was taken 

This is an application on the part of the Roman Catholic by either the " W higs" or the " Democrats." It seems to me 
Church, or of the Schools under the direction of the Roman not becoming — it seems to me that it is not treating the 
Catholic Church, to be permitted to participate in the School question in a proper manner to make these popular appeals, 
Fund. I desire to say this is not a controversy of Catholics and then to come here en masse to ask your honors to grant 
with Methodists, or of the Catholics with the Society of the prayer of this petition, at the same time telling you that 
Friends; the question here is, whether the petitioners can, the Catholics are one-fifth of our population. I care not how 
upon principles of public policy, be permitted to participate in numerous they are. I know the Catholics, when joined by 
the School Fund. I may say in advance, that 1 don't oppose others on a former day, had their petition rejected ; and 1 trust 
the petition on behalf of the Public School Society because when they come here alone, attended by the populace which 
the petitioners are Catholics. Within the last eighteen years they have excited, they will have no more nor any less con- 
it has been my duty, on behalf of the School Society, to op- ceded to them than is right, on sound principles of public 
pose many petitions for participation in this fund. Petitions policy. 

have come from Episcopalian Schools ; and those Schools There are two principles or propositions about which 

have been represented by a gentleman who is now one of the we shall not disagree. The first is, that the Legislature has 

highest dignitaries in that Church in this State, and also by power to direct that a Public Fund shall be provided for the 

able counsel. Petitions have come from the Dutch Reform- education of every child in the state. There is no contradic- 

ed Church, and they have been advocated with great ability, tion here of any sound principle. It is no violation of any 

Petiiions have come from the Methodist Church, and have sound public principle in the Legislature to enact, that 

likewise been advocated with great ability ; and from the out of the public money, raised by tax on all our citizens, 

Baptist Church, and they have been advocated with equal every child in the state may be permitted to receive the 

ability ; and from the Roman Catholic Church time and rudiments of an education. There is one other principle 

again; and the prayers of these petitioners, when united as which is equally in accordance with the well established 

when separate, have, upon what were deemed sound public public policy in this state, namely, that not one cent, 

principles, been rejected by your predecessors. Now the raised by public taxation, can go to support a religious 

petition comes from one society alone, and the question institution — can go in payment for an education purely 

is, whether the same principle which excluded the Epis- religious in its character. Now let us inquire for a mo- 

copalians, which excluded the Methodists, which excluded ment the reasons on u hich these propositions rest. Why is 

the Dutch Reformed Church, which excluded the Baptists, it that the state can tax all the people for the education of 

shall not now, as it has heretofore done, exclude the Roman our children 1 Because it is admitted that intelligence is 

Catholics also. necessary to enable every citizen to discharge his duly 

Mr. President, I regret that some things have been said on to the community — because our institutions rest upon the 

behalf of these petitioners that have been said. I regret that intelligence and virtue of the people; therefore, it is right 

an attempt should have been made here to enlist prejudices that the state should furnish that intelligence to every 

against the Public School Society, because it is a corporation, member, and it is no answer for any man, who is called to 

The Public Schools of this city are managed upon the same pay a tax for that legitimate purpose, to say, " I send my chil- 

principles on which the Common Schools throughout the dren to schools where I pay for their education — I do not 

state are conducted ; and if the Public Schools are wrong, wish to avail myself of the Public Fund — my children are 

the principles of the Common Schools throughout the whole educated at this or that classical school — I don't wish to 

State are equally erroneous; and it seems to me that the participate, and therefore I won't pay the tax." This is an 

question is, not whether the Public Schools are managed by answer that the state would not admit for a moment. And 

a corporation or not, but whether, upon principles which have it might be that the state adopted some system of education 

heretofore been discussed, there can be conceded to Catholics, which might not suit all; the Lancasterian, for instance, as 

or any other religious denomination, that which is now sought, in this city. Now some may say, " I dislike the Lancasterian 

If they be so fortunate as to prove I hat the Public Schools are system — I think it is calculated to impart a superficial edu- 

on a wrong basis, still they have not gained their point — still cation — I dislike it — I have a deep rooted objection to that 

they have not shown that Catholics, or any other religious de- system." But will the state permit him to say, I will with- 

nomination are entitled to the Fund. I may be permitted hold ray tax? I cannot pay my tax, because I have an 

also to say, I regret that popular appeals have been made on objection to the system which prevents my children partici- 

this subject. I do not object to the Trustees of that Associa- pating in the Fund ; and therefore I ask the privilege of 

tion coming here to petition; but when I read accounts of retaining my portion of the tax? Would the state listen 

popular appeals being made by a high dignitary of that to such a plea ? What then is the conclusion ? \V hy, the 

church to the people, to enlist the popular prejudice on this state, having the right to educate the children, and having 

subject, I may be permitted to say, that, at least, the course the right to tax the people for that purpose, must necessa- 

is a novel one. When I read accounts of the first pastor of rily adopt some general system — it must follow some gen- 

that church, — when I read of a mitred gentleman, being eral rule, and whatever my scruples may be, whatever may 

received by the people with "cheers," when I read that be the scruples of any other individual here, or throughout 

he addressed them and was " cheered" on, as we are the community, and however oppressive it may be to me, or 

accustomed to be in our public meetings, I must say there is to others, who cannot avail themselves of the system, they 

something novel in the proceeding. The gentlemen com- must submit. The great end which the state has in view — 

posing this body, I conceive are capable of reasoning on this to impart intelligence to every citizen — must be accom- 

subject, and it is hardly necessary that a mitred gentleman plished, and on some principle adopted and established by 

should descend into the arena, and appeal to the popular pre- the state itself Well, what is the next principle and reason ? 
judice or passion, to influence the judgment of this Board. I- We see that no tax can be laid for the support of reli- 

am sure sir, if I — and I speak it with all respect — if I, or any gion. Why ? Religion is the foundation of sound morals ; 

other man, had been passing St. James's, at the times these that no man will deny ; we do not five in an age when any 



24 

man denies it. Sound morals are essential to the preserva- trines of some known sect, there is no rehgion. Why, 
tion of the community ; why, therefore, shall not the city be Sir, we have been taught sound morals in all our Schools ; 
taxed for that which is essential to her preservation 1 Why I do not know any school in which they have not been 
shall she not be taxed for laying the foundation on which sound taught; I do not know a mechanics' shop where the young 
morals, and sound political institutions rest 1 I v/ill tell you American or Irishman goes to be instructed in the trade 
why. We are divided into different sects, and if we were of a cabinet maker or blacksmith, where he is not bound 
taxed for the support of religion, it would happen — it could to be of sound morals. This obligation prevails every where 
not be prevented — that a man would be taxed for the support — it is a thing which everybody acknowledges. We are 
of a religion in which he did not believe — and which he re- bound to teach it. " Thou shalt not lie ; Thou shall not 
regarded as injurious. I should be taxed to support the Jew- steal ; Thou shalt not bear false witness,' are precepts 
ish religion ; Dr. Brownlee would be taxed to support the which we teach in our Schools. Who ever heard to the 
Catholic religion, and the Reverend gentleman who has ad- contrary 1 And if we are bound to teach them, we are 
dressed you here to-night, would be taxed to support Dr. at liberty to teach those general religious truths which 
Brownlee's religion. And would they pay the tax 1 No ; give them sanction. I should like to know where there 
for it would be a violation of conscience ; and you would is a School in which the master is not at liberty to say ; 
then see the time arrive, if an attempt were made to collect such God's eye sees all you do ; and if you steal, or lie, the retri- 
a tax, when men would march to thestakeas in years gone by. bution of eternal judgment will follow you. This is not 
Right or wrong, you would see many Protestants go to the teaching religion. This is morality, and an invoking of the 
stake, before they would let a single dollar of their money common sanctions of that morality. Sir, it has been said of 
go to teach the Right Reverend Gentleman's religion. So, these Schools that they do not teach this. Why, if the gen- 
on the other hand, you would see thousands of Catholics tlemen had visited the Schools, and I am afraid they have 
suffer martyrdom before they would contribute to a fund not, they would have seen, if their eyes had been properly di- 
whereby they might, by chance, be contributing to the reeled, mottoes of this kind, "God sees and knows all our 
teaching of heresy. This is the reason why we cannot thoughts, words, and actions. "God sees all we do; he hears 
have a general tax for the support of religion. But again, all we say ; he knows all we do. "Sonreverence thy parent." 
we believe that religion is essential to sound morals. And yet, gentlemen, we don't teach religion ; we don't teach 
There is no gentleman here who will deny that the purgatory; we don't teach Baptism or no Baptism ; we don't 
Christian religion is the great conservative principle of the teach anything that is disputed among Christians. We have 
community.. And how is that best promoted and ad- no right to do so : but we have the right to declare moral 
vanced ? By being let alone ; by giving every denomina- truths, and this community gives us that right — not the law, 
tion a fair chance ; by leaving religion to voluntary support, but, as my friend sa3's, public sentiment. 
It is best for religion itself that it should be let alone to And is there no common principle in which all agree ? Is 
extend its own boundaries. Now, then, Mr. Chairman, there not a principle to which all religious men refer 1 And 
to me it is most manifest that this community is bound to have not we the right, thus far, to teach the sanctions of mo- 
furnish the rudiments of a common education. The state rality in these Schools? And because we teach the princi- 
is bound to do this, and to do it by some public system — by pies which every body acknovi'ledges, and no man disputes — 
some ordinance, or by some law ; the state is bound to make which give offence to nobody, and ought not, are we to be 
provision for furnishing this education. I do not say — I will told that these are religious Schools ? Why in our Common 
not pretend to say, that the state has a right to take the Schools we have all been taught the common truths of reli- 
children from the arms of their mothers. I do not mean to say gion, and yet no one ever went there to receive religious edu- 
that the state has a right to force education on any body, cation. 

That is not the principle. But I mean to say that the state Mr. Chairman, while in these common, established schools, 

ought to furnish a system which shall be open and accept- we give the rudiments of an ordinary education — while we 

able to all. It ought to furnish bread, and say come and teach there to write and cipher, and read the newspaper, and 

eat. I do not mean to inflict pains and penalties; I should discharge the duties of citizens, while this is done, there is an- 

think they would be hardly necessary. Let us go forth with other department in which religion is taught. We all know 

persuasion ; I am for using no force, but the force of strong it — we all feel it ; and while the legislature can go to any 

argument. Well, now sir, if it is the duty of the state to fur- extent to advance man in one department, that of common 

nish an education for the poor, and for all the children in the elementary learning, there is another, which is left to reli- 

community, or for all that will avail themselves of it, the state gion, where the pastor takes the children, where the Christian 

must establish some system ; and there is a system establish- parent takes the children, where the benevolent Christian 

ed in the City of New York, upon what we supposed to be takes the children to his Sunday School or elsewhere, and 

public principles — Common Schools in the common accepta- brings them under the influence of religion. This department 

tion of that term. is supplied by voluntary contribution, and not one dollar can 

Mr. Chairman, the idea that we are bound in our Common be paid by public tax. Now I do maintain, sir, that I speak of 

Schools to teach religion is a perfectly novel idea to an a line so clear, so broad, that every man who hears me, who 

American mind. Who ever went to a Common School to be has had the good fortune to receive an education in this coun- 

taught religion? I am in the midst of Americans who have re- try, will understand it ; a broad, clear, and distinct line between 

ceived their education in the Common Schools of this country, secular and religious education. One is received under the in- 

and I ii':k who ever went to a Common School to receive reli- fluence of a religious teacher ; that religious teacher gets his 

gious instruction 1 I venture to say that the idea is perfectly pay by the voluntary contribution of willing hearts ; he dares 

novel. But do we mean to say, that because no religion is not get it anywhere else ; he does not want to get it in any 

taught in these Schools, that they are irreligious? Far other way. The other can draw on the state for any 

otherwise. Now the Rev. Gent, has said — with all his pro- amount that the people in their sovereign capacity may deter- 

fessions of kindness he has said that religion is below par in •mine. 

the Public Schools ; at an immense discount. Now is it so ? We thus undertake in these Public Schools to furnish this 

He argues ingeniously that if they are not taught the doc- secular education, embracing as it does, not solely and ex- 



25 

clusively the common rudiments of learning, but also a it possible 1 Take a fair intelligent Protestant, and is it poa- 
knowledge of good morals, and those common sanctions sible that any Roman Catholic could object to that man in- 
of religion, which are acknowledged by every body. We structing his children to read, wriie, and cipher? Why no* 
have established such a system, and the question is, whether you might just as well say he has conscientious scruples 
that system shall be destroyed and a new one established, against such a man learning his son " the art, trade, and 
That is the question. This system is known and under- mystery" of cabinet making in a Protestant shop. You may 
stood ; it has spread its schools all over our city ; it is un- just as well say that he has conscientious scruples against 
der one government ; children removing from one Ward placing his son in the office of a Protestant lawyer to study 
to another find in each the same schools, are accommodated law. Why is it so in fad? Go into your fashionable 
with the same books, meet with, and are instructed under schools and I ask you if there are not there as many Catho- 
the same uniform system. Now shall it be continued or hcs, as of other sects 1 I think I have in my eye those, 
not? Mr. Chairman, if the prayer of this petition be grant- among the petitioners themselves, who send their children to 
ed it must be abandoned. I can show you this in a few Madame this or that, who is a Protestant ; and there are 
minutes. Does the reverend gentleman suppose that he ™^ny Protestants here, who send their children to the 
alone would be permitted to take this fund? Does he ima- Schools of Catholics ; and in doing this, they consider them- 
gine that the various Protestant denominations will stand selves as compromising nothing, for there is no rehgion taught 
by, and look on, and see him draw ten, twelve, or fourteen '■'^^re. These considerations, which so press on the minds of 
dollars a child, for its education, and the making it— for it ^^'^'^ conscientious petitioners for the hardship endured by the 
would be so— that would be the result after all— not only a Parents who send their children to public schools now, are 
fair scholar, but a good Catholic. Does he suppose he is "ot appreciated in their own case when they send their sons 
going to have that business to himself, and that other reve- *? <-olumbia College, or to the Schools of Protestant Mrs. 
rend gentlemen are going to stand by, and build up no ^J^'^\ °'' ^O""® °^^^' ^^dy. Well now, Mr. Chairman, if 
schools ? It will not be as in former years, as the reverend !^^''^ ^^ "° conscientious scruples at all against employing 
gentleman conjectures, for then the bounty of the State Protectants to teach their children toread, and write and cipher, 
was small, then only two dollars a head, or something of «" what can their conscientious scruples rest? It has been 
that sort, could be drawn, and the Lancasterian system was '^"^' (^^'/ ^^'" "°' ^^'^ ^'^ Pf ^^S?.' because the commonly 

4 • . J J ,1 4U -J ♦ ir J t understood meaning of it has been disavowed,) that the chil- 

not introduced; then there was no inducement offered to , ,, , . .u i i j woo, ^ >, ,; i cil uic uiui 

.1 ■■ . , J- u t. -iu ti • 1 u * n, -D 1, oien that go to these schools do not reverence their parents, 

the religious bodies; but with this large bounty tile Presby- „„ . ,. , ,? r , , . <• .i , , "^ 

i ■ ^,1. Ti • 1- .u -D .- f 1 r • J *u ana that they feel a contempt for hem, as thouffh a special 

tenans, the Episcopalians, the Baptists, and our friends the ■« „ . j, j , u- u .u i j" =h>^^'.^^' 

Tvr *. i- , f -4 I u» 1 -in influence had been used by which they were led to do this. 

Methodists, who are it seems such naughty people, will have iv^,,, t o, „„„ „ i „, i ► j- i • i r -.i .u . 

,, . , ; J,, -,, , ,, ^ncii 1. J 4 iNOw 1 supposed, untd it was disclaimed so explicitly, that 

their schools, and they will have them well nlled too ; and not ,,■ i,„j „,' „„,■ .• . ., ., r .i o . <• 

1 nu J -41, .u 1-11 r 41, • J- • 1 u 4 41 '"'^ "ad an application to the gentlemen of the Society of 

only filled with the children of their own disciples, but they tp^:„„j„ ^,,,11,0 t?»„„ ;i „^,i u j /-. 

.,{, . , 44 1 • • ,u u 4L rnends. tSut the Keverend gentleman has disavowed it ; 

will havean inducement to bring mothers, because the more „„,j u„ „„„k, ,„ i„ „„ r„.T „ . 11 .u . .1 .1 . .u 

4, , . ,, °, .,, ; J ,, and no ought to do so, tor 1 can tell that a-entlernan, that the 

they draw m the more money they will draw ^nd the con- pnends never perhaps in a single instance, sent or permitted 
sequence will be that the system of Public Schools will_ be children of theirs to go to these schools. They educate their 
broken up. ^ow the consideration which I wish to bring ^wn poor, and they ask the state for no participation, 
to your mmd is, whether the new system will be as good or They do not send their children there, and I venture to affirm 
better than the old. It is the common sense way of acting th^^^ ^f thg numerous children that go to those schools 
not to desert that which has done well, that which has not one attends the public ordinances of relio- on ac- 
done good service, unless we see that we are going to cording to the mode established by the Society of 
improve by the change. What is the charge brought Friends. And I will go farther, and say, of those who 
against this system of public school instruction? What are educated there, none are converted to thrir faith 
is the charge? What is the objection? What is the Whatever may be intended here, or elsewhere it maybe 
system established for? It is to furnish a good, common, asserted, with perfect confidence, that those individuals 
ordinary literary education— a good literary and scientific make no proselytes, and also it may be said, that they have 
education— to instruct our children in the rudiments of jjept their people from being teachers, fearing such accusa- 
hterature and science. Now there is no charge— and I want tions as are made against them by the Rev. Gentleman, 
this body to look at this paper in reference to that— there is And, Mr. President, if it is alleged, and I understand it 
no charge against the School Society that It has not performed now to be disclaimed, that the course of education beffeta 
that duty— that it has not given what it was bound to give irreverence to parents, I can only say they who affirm it 
—the rudiments of a good literary education— that it has not speak of that which they do not understand, 
enabled the children to read, and write, and cj^er, and fur- If they had gone to these schools they would have seen 
nished them with the elements of geography, so as to fit them what care is taken, what sound moral principles are incul- 
to go forth and discharge their duties as intelligent citizens, cated, and they would then never have made this charge. 
There is no charge against the Societythatit has not performed But it is now disclaimed, and it is not for that reason, then, 
this. What then is it ? Why it is this, that the Cathohss, from that they have conscientious scruples. But whnt else is 
conscientious scruples,cannot come inand participate in the ad- there? It is affirmed that some of these books contain pas- 
vantages of the system. Their consciences forbid them to sages reflecting on Catholics. Now I submit to the can- 
have their children educated in these schools. Now, Mr. dour of the gentleman, and of every one that hears me;— 
Chairman, there is no man, I apprehend, that can have a because the books, containing num'erous extracts from nu- 
higher respect for the rights of conscience, than he who now merous authors, collected tosrether for the use of these 
addresses you ; but let us examine this matter, and with all schools, contain a few passages -which I may conceive re- 
respect for those whose claim we now discuss, I fairly and fleet on me or on my relijjion, or on my politics, is that a 
candidly ask, can a Roman Catholic have conscientious scru- good reason why I should have, conscientious scruples and 
pies against my learning his son to read, to write, to cipher, objections against the entire system ? Let us see where it 
and the common elements of geography ? Can it be ? Is would lead. Here is the Catholic, in turning over perhaps 



26 

a thousand pages, finds some fifty lines that reflect on his the minority appealed to the Pope. Now the gentleman 
religion. I venture to say the Calvinists, on turning over is mistaken if he supposes I am capable of appealing to 
those pages would find something reflecting on them. I any prejudices improperly, but he has not denied this fact ; 
have not made the experiment, but I have no doubt that and I expected it would have been denied or some how ex- 
would be the result. Then comes the High Churchman, plained, how such an appeal was made from that country, 
and if he does not find something there bearing on his pe- Sir, such an appeal might be made in this country; and if 
culiarities, I am mistaken. Then there are the Methodists, so, in all candour I ask whether it does not belong to a 
and if they do not find something there bearing on what foreign Potentate to say whether the Bible shall be read in 
people call their fanaticism, it is extraordinary. Then our Common Schools? I ask if they can escape from that 
there is the Politician, and there may be something extract- position? I want an answer to that ques ion. And if 
ed from Jefferson used in these schools, and to this, a cer- there be a foreign power, spiritual or otherwise, to say that 
tain class of politicians may say ; I cannot have my children the Bible shall not be read, I ask if that power may not say 
taught Jeffersoniauism. Well then there is my particular, that the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence 
worthy friend, Daniel Webster, who may have contributed shall not be read ? I mean no reflection. This matter 
something to the pages of these books, and a Democrat, has come out in evidence here, and I draw from it what 
who takes up ihe books may say 1 cannot go Webster any may be supposed to be legitimate conclusions. The gentle- 
how ; I must have that expurgated. Now if all men must men opposite may smile, but I ask if they can escape from 
go on in this way, and conscientiously object to the system these conclusions. I know there are many of the Catholic 
because in the reading lessons they find some passages laity who are Americans by birth, and many by adoption, 
against their religious or political opinions, the whole of who would settle that question very soon. Though the 
the books will be expunged. I do not mean to reflect mitre may be placed by a foreign power, on the head of 
on the con'-cientious scruples of any man, but I ask if him that wears it, I know there is a feeling in the Ameri- 
we are not luund to take hold of this system in a fair and can bosom — be it Catholic or Protestant — that will not 
candid manner. We must have a public system ; and it is allow a foreign Potentant either directly, or indirectly, 
impossible to have a public system to which some man to interfere. Now, Mr. President, I have got through 
may not have scruples and objections. Well, sir, but what all I propose to say on this subject, and again I put it to 
next? Why, the Bible. I believe a chapter from the you, shall we not have the privilege to learn our little fel- 
Bible, the Protestant translation, without note or comment, low citizens to read, and write, and cipher, and to teach 
is read in some of these schools at their opening every day. them the common elements of Geography and History? 
Shall we give up this Bible, Mr. President? It would be Shall we be prevented by a conscientious scruple? Mr. 
a very hard thing. I have no authority to say how far the Chairman, I feel a strong desire that both Protestants and 
trustees can go, or will go, in a spirit of compromise, with Catholics should be brought into the same schools, and I 
an earnest desire to get in these children ; but I am here to see in such a circumstance, great and wholesome, and be- 
say that it will be a great sacrifice to give up the Bible — neficial political results. When a stranger comes here 
to give up that translated Bible, — containing, as we believe, from a foreign land, where he has been oppressed, I am 
and as, I doubt not, a great part of Christendom believes, willing to grant him an asylum, and to say that he shall 
not only a fair translation, but a vast fund of pure English, have all the benefits of this land, and of our Constitution ; 
It will be hard to give up that Bible, sir. It has furnished and that if he has been oppressed, that he has come to a 
consolation in life and hope in death, to many. The insti- country where he shall be oppressed no more. All I ask 
tutions of liberty and the altars of piety have sprung up in is that he shall give America his heart. If he comes with 
the path of that translated Bible; and whereever that an Irish heart, let it become an American heart; let him 
translated Bible has gone popular institutions have risen, stand by America, and by her children, enjoying the same 
All those glorious principles, which, here in this country rights as they enjoy, and growing up with them, amalga- 
are so conspicuous, have come from that Bible; and mate with them, and interchanging the same kind and be_ 
whereever that translated Bible has been kept from the nevolent feelings together. That is what I want. I want 
hands of the laity there has been darkness and despotism, to see the country from which he came second in his re- 

We, sir, have a Declaration of Independence of which gard to the land of his adoption, to the land of his children, 
we are proud, because it contains those great principles and I want those children so brought up that when they 
of liberty which are found in the Bible. Yes, sir, there become men they shall have pure American feelings. I 
lies beyond that Declaration of Independence, a book whose hope, sir, they will not be taught that we entertain the same 
principles are a Declaration of Independence to man ; and feeling here that orangemen, and Protectants, entertain in 
whereever that book is read man finds out his rights and Ireland. We are not unfriendly to them ; our children are 
is willing to assert them. not their enemies; let us then grow up and amalgamate to- 

Mr. President, and gentlemen of the Board, it is in your gether. I dislike any system that would cast off from 
hands. It is at present in the hands of these Trustees, but American ground these children of foreign countries; and 
it is a very delicate trust. We are called upon to give up I <isk the gentleman if they cannot come in and place their 
that Bible. I am not the man to say that it can be done, children side by side with ours, and let them feel thai in 
and I believe if this is necessary to a compromise, we sliall the Schools there are no partialities, and that out of them 
have to say, " No Compromise." We cannot give up that they may go to their own chuich and bow before their own 
Bible from our own hands and the hands of the children altar. But for civil purposes let all be brought up to- 
of this Republic. Mr. Chairman, we must go a little far- gether. 

ther. Suppose we did now give up the Bible, and make Mr. Chairman, there is another very plausible argument 
a common selection from the two translations — the Catho- presented here. They tell you in their memcrial that they 
lie and our own — suppose we made a common selection will engage to give as good an ordinary secular education 
about which we all agree ! Why, gentlemen, such a com- as the public Schools can give forthe same money. They 
promise was made across the water, — that compromise was propose to allow their Schools to be visited by the public 
agreed to by a majority of the Irish Catholic ]3ishops, but authoiities, or by ihe Trustees themselves, and to place 



them under some general supervision. Now there are two the purposes of education, was that the School Society was 

ways of insuring the fidelity of Trusters, in directing the to have the superintendence. The sum (if $73,000 was 

object of a public trust towards the end designed; one is by thus raised because confidence was reposed in the School 

supervision, and the other is by so creating the trust, as to Society, as antagonistic of those Church Societies, 
insure, by its organization, the requisite fidelity. The latter Now perhaps the gentleman may ask, if the system is 

I prefer. Here is a religious society whose paramount to be changed, that we should resort to the same coiirsi-' as 

purpose is religious instruction ; if to that be superadded a is pursued in the countrjr, where the people elect their own 

literary education it will be subordinate to the other as it commissioners and trustees. But if we do, the schools 

ought ; its constant tendency will be to neglect the literary must be governed on the same principles as these, and the 

education for the purpose of promoting the other, and there- only difference will be in the miinagers. And if it is to 

fore, the object of the legislature will .most likely be neg- come to that I am sure these Trustees will be very willing, 

lected. for it is to them a source of great vexation to be compelled 

But here is the Public School Society, created for one to carry on this controversy for such a period, 
single purpose — and that is, education; for that it is organ- They are very unwilling to come here to meet their 
ized, and to that end all its operations tend. But if it had fellow citizens in a snmewhat hostile manner. They have 
two objects in view, the paramount one would be that which nothing to gain, for the society is no benefit to them, and 
would receive its chief attention ; the other and subordinate they give dajs and weiks of their time, without recompence, 
one would n ceive less. If you entrust this business of to the discharge of the duties of their trust. They have 
education to a Religious Society, religion will be para- nothing to gain, but they have arduous duties to discharge • 
mount and literature will be subordinate. Let that subor- nor have they anything to conceal. They report every- 
dinate one be paid for by the state, and it would be in their thing to this Common Council ; and therefore, the public 
case if they had no other object. Bui gentlemen the ques- know all they do, and if they are not found faithful to the 
tion is, will you desert the Public School Society, and take trust, if in the solemn judgment of this corporation they do 
up this New Society ? It has been said that the Public not answer the end proposed, elect others in their place, and 
School Society is a monopoly. In the country the if the prayer of this petition be granted it will be equiva- 
Trustees are chosen by the people, but in this city, owing lent to their arraignment. I know not that I can add any- 
to its peculiar organization, the matter is left to the super- thing more to my argument. It has been my foitune 
intendence of benevolent individuals who are voluntary during the last eighteen years, from time to time to aro-ue 
agents. They receive no compensation for their services, this question before other boards who came to a unanimous 
and experience has shown that the duties have been betier decision, and at the very time when the question was re- 
discharged by that system than by any other. You may ferred to the Legislature the petitioners were supported by 
go to the Schools in the state and examine the most favoiira- a Rev. Gentleman of the highest respectability of that day, 
ble ones; then visit the Schools in this city, and the educa- and by lay gentlemen of great talent. We had the discus- 
tion in our Schools vvill be found superior to that in the sion here until eleven and twelve o'clock at night, and the 
Common Schools elsewhere. gentlemen of the Common Council— men of great rcspecta- 

This society is called a corporation ; but it is a corpo- bility — denied the prayer of the petition and the public sus- 

ration which is bound by law to report all its proceedings tained them in their decision. Our Roman Catholic friends 

every year to this council, and at stated times to the Legis- come now with the same principle that was decided then, 

lature. It is a corporation of which the members of this and I hope, Sir, the prayer of the Petitioners will not be 

board are ex officio members. It is a corporation which granted. 

has control of a great fund, and it has for its end the good The Rev. Dr. Bond then appeared as the representative 

ofthestate; but it is willing that its real estate shall be trans- of the Methodist Episcopal Church, but he gave way to 
ferred to this corporation whenever the public good re- The Right Rev. Bishop Hughes, who desired to make a 

quires it, and to this end an offer has long since been made brief reply to the two legal gentlemen who had addressed 

and is now repeated. But if we are to have this Common the board. He said, I have a few remarks that I wish to 

School system of education, I ask, if it is not better to make, partly in reference to myself and partly to my prin- 

have it under the supervision ol men of business, and of ciples, and the views submitted with regard to those prin- 

high character, who are willing to devote their leisure ciples; but the debate h:;s taken a range too wide and too 

to its interests? I wish to call your attention to another legal for me to pretend to follow it throughout. I am not 

subject. This fund is a large one; $73,000 is from the accustomed to the niceties of -legislation or the manner of 

state a-.d compulsory taxation ; in the country, as ex- interpreting statutes or acts of the Legislature, but to sum 

plained by my associate, a certain sum is granted by the up the whole of the two eloquent addrc-^ses rnade by the 

state on condition that an equal sum is added to the School gentlemen who have just spoken, they amount to this, that 

Fund, by a tax laid on the people themselves who re- either the consciences of Catholics must be crushed and 

ceive it. But independent of that, our citizens came and their objections resisted, or the Public School System must 

asked to be taxed something more, and that amount is be destroyed. That is the pith of both their observations, 

more than the other two. But it must be recollected when They argue that there must be either one or the other of 

this request to be permitted to tax themselves still farther these two results, and those gentlemen are inclined to the 

was made, it was settled and determined that the churches course of compelling conscience to give way, they being 

should be excluded. When that was settled and the the judge of our consciences which they wish to overrule"^ 

Schools were mainly under the supervision of the Common so that the Public School Society— and I do not desire to 

School Society, that society got up petitions for this addi- detract from it as far as good intentions are concerned 

tiorial taxation, and because confidence was placed in that shall continue to dispose of the Public School Fund not- 

society the taxation was not opposed. Now if we revert withstanding our objections and the reasoning on which 

back to the Common School System, this must come back they are based. The gentleman who last spoke, appeared 

too; for lafKrm, that the chief consideration which induced to imagine that I wished the exclusion of the Protestant 

the petitioners— and they were men of great property Bible, and that, for the benefit of Catholics, I laid myself 

among them — to sign the petition asking to be taxed for open to the charge of enmity to the word of God- but I 



28 

desired nothing of the sort. I would leave the Protestant •' and returned quite invigorated, for the perpetration of 

Bible for those that reverence it; but for myself, it has not new offences.' 

mv confidence. Another obj' ction which he made, was of Now, suppose Catholic children hear this m the com' 
a peisoiial character to myself; but while ihat gentleman pany of their Protestant associates ! They will be subjee' 
started with the beautiful rule of charity to others, and with to the ridicule of their companions, and the consequence 
a lecture on the propriety of retaining our station in life, will be that their domestic and religious attachments will 
and the impropriety of the public appeals of which he was become weakened, they will become ashamed of their re- 
pleased to speak, 1 regret that his practice was not in ac- ligion, and they will grow up Nothingarians. 
cordance with his precept— and that while he was lectur- But again, on page 120, when speaking of intemperance, 
ino- me on the subject, he himself should have gone beyond we find the following ; — 

any thing which proper discussion called for If I attended „ ^^ .^ ^^^^ probable, however, a part of the papal system." 
those meetings it was because I felt the evil of the present 

system as regards us — not its evil as regards others ; and ^nd this, notwithstanding all that Father Matthew has 
we must be permitted to be the judge of our own duties, and done. 

to see for ourselves while we accord to others the same right „ ^^^_ ^^^^^ drunkenness shall have been done away, and with it, 
for themselves. I beg to disclaim any intention to over thatjust, relative proportion of allindolence, ignorance, crime, misery, 
rule this community or to bring any thing from Rome, ex- and superstition, of which it is the putative parent; then truly a much 
cept to those who believe in its spiritual authority. Con- smaller portion of mankind may beexpected to follow the dark lantern 
sequently all those remarks of that gentleman jiave been ''''/,Th^['"engi''on'Ts°most likely to find professors among the frivo- 
out of place; and for the rest I conceive the true point has jo,,^ a^j ^be wicked, which by a species of ecclesiastical legerde- 
not been touched Not one of our objections or scruples main can persuade the sinner, that he is going to heaven, when he 
of conscience has he undertaken to analyze, nor the grounds -^^ going directly to hell. By a refined ami complicated systen, of 
, . , , . -,.-., , ■r r Jesiutrv and pre atical nigshug, the papa see has obtained its pie- 

on which they exist. When I gave those reasons for our UTeLZtJ mMencl throu|h the world." 
objections, 1 thought some argument would have been 

urged fair4y against them, but the only end the gentleman And unless we send our children to imbibe these lessons 
appears to have in view, is the preservation of the School ^e are going to overturn the system! But is that the true 
Society, and to maintain that they have a patient right to the conclusion to which the gentleman should come, from our 
office. That I know is his object ; but I did not expect to petition? Is that reasoning from fads and the evidence 
he;ir any man construing the law as that its advantages before their eyes? I have promised not to detain the 
cannot reach us unless we lay down and sacrifice our con- board, and therefore, I would merely say, if 1 have at- 
sciences at the threshhold. I have spoken for myself and tended those meetings it was not with the views the gen- 
I have disclaimed all high-handed objects: but the gentle- tleman has imputed to me, nor to distinguish myself as 
man insists notwithstanding the pledge which we have has been insinuated. I have taken good care to banish 
given, that in spite of all, we shall teach our religion. I politics from those meetings, and if I have mentioned the 
disclaim such intentions, and t do not think it fair in that number of Catholics, or of their children, it was to show 
gentleman to impute intentions which we disclaim. The how far this system fills short of the end which the 
gentleman has drawn a beautiful picture of Society if all Legislature had in view. I disclaim utterly and entirely 
could live in harmony, (I would it could be reduced to the intention imputed to me by the gentleman, but I will 
practice,) whether born in foreign parts or in this country, iiot longer detain the board. 

But if all could be brought up together — if all could asso- ]Vlr. Mott, one of the Public School Trustees, with the 
ciate in such a state without prejudice to the public welfare permission of the board, explained the manner in which 
while the Protestants use such books as those to which we the book which the Right Rev. prelate had last alluded 
object, it could only be by the Catholic concealing his re- too, had found its way into the Schools. It was one of a 
ligion, for if he owns it he will be called a "Papist." The series of tales published by the temperance society; and 
genthmon says that one of the books to which we object is when a committee was appointed for filling the library, 
not a text book used in the Schools ; but, if not, it is one of their attention was called to the first number of the series: 
the books placed in the library to which I do not say «,'e they read two or three of them which had come from the 
contribute more than others, but it is supported at the pub- press, and as they appeared to be adapted to the reading of 
lie expense, to which Catholics contribute as well asothers. children the committee admitted them, and by some mis- 
I will read you one passage and leave you lo judge for take it was supposed that all the other volumes of the 
yourselves what will be its effects on the minds of our chil- game series and under the same title were ordered loo, and 
dren. The work is entitled " The Irish Heart," and the they were sent in as they issued from the press after that 
author at page 24, is desciibiiig an Irish Catholic, and he period, and in this way the book in question had crept 
says: — " As for old Phelim Maghee, he was of no particu- in. But this being discovered by a Catholic trustee, it 
lar religion." was withdrawn, and of this the gentlemen were fully ap- 

And how the gentlemen describe the Public Schools, but prized, and therefore he asked if it was generous or just to 
as Schools of religion and no religion. They say they give quote that book, under these circumstances, to strengthen 
religious instruction; but again they say it is not religion, the cause of the Catholics. 

for it does not vitiate their claim. The Right Rev. Bishop Hughes assured the gentle- 

" As for old Phelim Maghee, he was no of particular religion." man that he, until that moment, had not heard of the books 
" When Phelim had laid up a good stock of sins, he now and then, having been withdrawn, 
went over to Killarncr, of a Sabbath morning, and got reiaa/ by cm- rp.g ^iev Dr BoND then ao-ain rose to address the 

•^nf,i"fh'ir'r'V'°"''''™'''^'''''''"'''^ '"'''''■'" ''''"''"'' bonrd as the representative of 'the Methodist Episcopal 

SOU! " lul d WdJCT. 1 \ • J I 1 • A \^ 

That is the term they apply to our doctrine of transub- Church, but as it was now ten o clock, it \vas proposed by 
stantiation, and they want us to associate and to enjoy every one of the aldermen to take a recess untd Friday after- 
thing in harmony when they thus assail our religious noon at four o'clock, which was agreed too, and the board 
righ°. adjourned. 



^^•^^^^ DAY. allow something for the provocation. Sir, we had ea- 

The Board re-assembled at four o'clock on Friday the feemed the Public Schools a common benefit, and we 
30th October, by adjournment from the previous day, "ad made sacrifices to the system. We too should have 
but some time elapsed before the debate could be resum- '"'^" S''"^ '^ ^^f could have educated our children in our 
ed in consequence of the difficulty which the gentlemen °"'" ^*'?>'' ^"^ •" o""" sectarian tenets, or prejudices if 
who took part in the proceedings, found in gaining an y°" ^''''" 5. ''"' ^^l^^" '^6 found the legislature providing 
entrance to the Council Chamber through the greatly in- ^" education that should be universal, we brought all our 
creased crowd of persons who were anxious and strug- sectarian feelings and placed them on the altar of the 
gling to be present. After the room had been filled to P"'^''c vvelfare. And when we found the Public Schools 
overflowing, many hundreds were still excluded who ^^'^'<^h we esteemed so great a good, about to be destroy- 
desired admission; but the room was filled to its utmost ®^ ^y '^^ sectarian prejudices of another denomination, 
capacity, even to standing room in the windows, and ^^® ^^®''^ alarmed, and we stated in our memorial that 
those still crowding round the entrance door were obliged ^ ^vere alarmed; and was there no cause for alarm ? 
to endure the disappointment. David GRAHA^r, Esq.^Al "^Y ^^e public gatherings which were so feelingly al- 
derman of the Fifteenth Ward, presided on this occasion ''^^'^d to last night, were cause of alarm .' Was there 
as the Inctim tcnens of the President, Mr. Alderman "°' cause for alarm when, at a time of general excite- 
Purdy, who however was present seated with the Alder- '"^"' ^"'^ political strife, there were these gatherings of 
men. There were also present many distinguished and ^'^^ Catholies, — and was there not cause to fear that their 
Reverend gentlemen of various denominations of this "''J^'^' "''is 'o ^'est from the Common Council by intimi- 
City, besides those who took part in the discussion. Dr. ''^''O") ^^hat they had failed to obtain by reason and ar- 
Brownlee was seated near Dr. Bond during that gentle- S^^^nt ? Such were our fears; but really sir, the corn- 
man's speech, but he did not attempt to address the P'^'"' °^ "'3"' of respect in our memorial, is wholly out 
Board. of place. Why, the gentleman reminds me of a' man 

The Rev. Dr. Pise and other Reverend gentlemen of ^^'^^ ^^'^''*' deliberately skinning a living eel, cursed the 
the Catholic Church, were seated with the Rio-ht Rev. " y^rmint" because it would not hold still. Why, sir, 
Bishop Hughes and the Verv Rev. Dr. Power, and many "^'^ skinning is a serious matter ; I hope, however, that 
preachers of the Methodist" Episcopal Church, were in "'® ^^^" ^^ allowed the apology which the Right Rev. 
the vicinity of the orator by whom they were represent- gentleman made for himself and for those associated with 
ed. " him when speaking of the Society of Friends and their 

When all the gentlemen were seated, the President '^''^^ — 
called upon the Rev. Dr. Bond, of the Methodist Epis- "® Right Rev. Bcshop Hughes interposed and said 

copal Church to proceed with the debate on behalf of 'i^ .^ad not spoken of the creed of either the Society of 
the remonstrants of that body. Friends or of the Methodists : he did not suppose this 

The Rev. Dr. Bond, spoke as follows :— ''°'*>' ^^^s sitting in judgment on creeds. 

Mr. President and Gentlemen of the Common The Rev. Dr. Bond continued. I admit that when 
Council, — It may be necessary here, in the outset, that ^^^ Reverend gentleman spoke of the Society of Friends, 
I should, on the part of those that I represent, disclaim he did not speak of them by name. Well, but the 
all hostility to our fellow citizens who have made their Right Rev. gentleman says, — and he contends it has an 

claim to this Council. To them we have no hostility, important bearing on "this matter that we have 

nay we have no prejudice against them as a body, and made a false issue — that we charge that the applicants 
of any hostility that may be found in the memorial which lequire a portion of this public money for sectarian pur- 
we have presented to this body, the address of the Right poses, and this he says is "a false issue." If this be true. 
Rev. gentleman who opened this discussion last night, it will have an important bearing on the question; but 
will furnish us with a thorough explanation, for when he ^e affirm that it is not a false issue : it is the true issue; 
adverted to that part of his memorial which related to there can he no other issue. It will be remembered sir, 
the Society of Friends, he wished it to be expresslv un- that we have only now to justify what we have alleged 
derstood that he spoke of their creed apart from them- •" o"'" memorial; we are not going into the merits of the 
selves. Now this is the explanation we wish to make of legal part ofthe question, for we are not of the legal profes- 
our memorial which we have presented to this Council, sion; and after what we have heard from the legal gentle- 
We speak of the creed of the Roman Catholic Church i"en in this discussion, it cannot be expected. But we do 
apart from the Roman Catholics themselves. We are affirm that the issue we in common with the Trustees of 
bound, not only by the obligations of social life, but by 'he Public School Society plead — that this money is ap- 
our common Christianity to extend to them all the benev- P'isd for, for Sectarian purposes — is the true issue. 
olence which we think ought to be exercised towards How do we prove it? It has been one leading objection 
any other portion of our fellow citizens. It may be asked to the Public Schools, that no religion is taught in them, 
why we adverted to their creed at all. Because it was Well, it is also alleged that no religion can be taught 
wholly unavoidable. We could not do otherwise, be- there, unless we teach sectarianism. Now if it be com- 
cause it was on its peculiarities that they rested their plained on the part of our Roman Catholic fellow citi- 
claim to a portion of this Fund — it was on their peculiar zens that no religion is taught in these schools, surely 
creed that they rested their scruples against sending their they don't mean to keep schools in which they will teach 
children to the Public Schools. We could therefore, no no religion. We take them to be honest in what they 
otherwise, resist their claim but by adverting to those say, and I hope that is not "a false issue." They 
peculiarities. And it is complained that we adverted to allege that no religion is taught, and that none can he 
them with too little respect. Now sir, we must be allow- taught without teaching sectarianism. Now we take it 
edtosay that whatever there is of disrespect to our Roman for granted, that they will not keep schools in which no 
I Catholic fellow citizens in this memorial, they ^must religion is taught, or why do they object to the Public 



30 




so, then will not the p ^ ...„..-,^ «pvprillv ? 

purposes? There is only oneway '° ^/f^Pf jf;^™ ^'^^ '^"we ve3o say, that the sturdy claimants who now beset 
position. What claim may be set up here, 1 know not, ^^^ Council, would not be satisfied with much less than the lion's 
but elsewhere it is alleged, that they teach the Koman ^jjare and we are sure that there are other Protestant denominations 
Pntholic Relio-ion and that is not sectarianism, inasmuch besides ourselves, who would not patiently submit to the exaction." 
as it is the only true Religion. And this has been spoken of sir, by the Right Rev. 

This may be a salvo for them but it is not for us. gentleman as though we had threatened a rebellion. 
They will not expect that other denominations will ad- Is it necessary that we should stir up rebellion to carry 
mit that the Roman Catholic is the only true religion, out all we said .? We only said " we are sure that there 
and that it is not sectarianism. But if they do, and if are other Protestant denominations besides ourselves, 
thev still say that theirs is the only true church,— and if who would not patiently submit to the exaction. Have 
thev only a branch of the common stock— only one of the Catholics submitted patiently to what they consider 
the many sects of our common Christianity, teach Cath- a grievance.' Certainly not, for they have reiterated 
olicism there, they teach sectarianism as much as Meth- their claim again and again with a perseverance, which 
odists would do if they had, one of these Schools in in a good cause is praiseworthy. But we did not say we 
which they taught Methodism. And if they teach Cath- would rebel ;" we said we would not " pa/ieii//?/ submit, 
olic sectarianism to their children, will not the money nor should we be patient until we obtained a legal remedy, 
they claim, if allowed, be applied to sectarian purposes 1 But we have said " when all the christian sects shall be 
This is all we said, sir, and is this " a false issue!" We satisfied with their individual share of the Public i^ und, 
say it is the true issue; there can be no other issue, for what is to become of those children whose parents be- 
there can be no possible objection to this conclusion, long to none of these sects, and who cannot conscien- 
So much for " the issue," sir. tiously allow them to be educated in the peculiar dogmas 

But it was complained, sir, that we have said the ar- of any one of themi The different committees who on a 
ffuments by which their application on a former occasion former occasion approached your hon. body have shown, 
was resisted, were " clear, cogent, and unanswerable." that to provide schools for these only, \yould require lit- 
We grant that this is a matter of opinion ; we say tie less than is now expedded; and it requires little 
when we read them in the memorial of the Trustees of arithmetic to show that when the religious sects have 
the Public Schools, we thought them clear, cogent, and taken all, nothing will remain for those who have not 
conclusive- but we accord to the gentleman the right to yet been able to decide, which of the Christian denom- 
forra his own opinion, and can he complain if we claim inations to prefer. It must be plain to every impartial 
the same privilege which we accord to him .' But it was observer, that the applicants are opposed to the whole 
complained that we had alleged that " neither the con- system of public school instruction." ]Now the gentleman 
stitution of the State, nor the public welfare, are to be admits it— he says it is obviously true,.that when all is 
regarded, when they stand in the way of Roman Catho- taken nothing would remain. And would not the sects 
lie sectarianism and exclusiveness." Why, is it not on take all ? Who else would there be to take it i And 
the ground of Sectarian exclusiveness that they make when they had taken all, nothing would remain, iiut 
this claim ? I take it for granted that if they cannot we have alluded to a large body who would remain to be 
conscientiously send their children to the Public Schools, educated, when we have no money left for that purpose, 
their conscientious objection is founded on their creed. Our Roman Catholic brethren claim to be one-hith ol the 
There is something of peculiarity in their creed, for they population. We shall not dispute this. But when the 
alone of all the denominations, have scruples on this sub- Right Rev. gentleman alluded to the statement that six 
iect- and we did not then intend to give offence by the Catholic teachers were employed in the Public bchools, 
term sectarian exclusiveness. But again, it is complained he disputed five out of the six, and said that there was 
that we alleo-ed that " It must be manifest to the Common but one that deserved the name. Now if you take these 
Council, that if the Roman Catholic claims are granted, six teachers as a fair sample of this one fifth of the P"pu- 
all the other christian denominations will urge their lation which is nominally Catholic, how many wou d be 
claims for a similar appropriation, and that the money left that are really Catholic? and how many would on 
raised for education by a general tax, will be solely appli- similar principles of calculation really belong to any ot 
ed to the purposes of pro'selytism, through the medium the other sects who profess to belong to them , 
of sectarian schools." And can any thing be clearer ? But again, allowing that all are Israel that are of Israel— 
Indeed the gentleman does not take particular exception that all are christian that profess to be christian — what 
to this. " That the money raised for education by a portion of the City of New-York is there that professes 
general tax will be solely applied to the purposes of to belong to any sect at all? Not one half I arn sure, 
proselytism!" Why, if they are honest in their preju- Well what becomes of the children of those who belong 
dices for their form of worship, and if they believe their to none of these sects? When the money is distributed 
own religion the best, they will endeavor to impart their among the sects "what is to become of those children 
own views and all the principles which they advocate to whose parents belong to none of these sects and who 
those they take under their own care. And what is this cannot conscientiously allow them to be educated in the 
but proselytism? The word is not used offensively for peculiar dogmas of any one of them ?" Now, sir, the 
we only mean by making proselytes, the making con- Committees of the Public School Society expressly tell 
verts to their own faith. But we had said "If this were us, that it would require little less than the present ap- 
done, would it be the price of peace ? or would it not propriation to provide for these only, and why? Be- 
throw the apple of discord into the whole Christian com- cause the expense of tuition is not in proportion to the 



31 

number taught. When you have provided what is ne- tmust take it as it is received by the church itself Now 

cessary for a given number a great addition may be this book-the Rhemish New Testament savs --ll 

made without augmenting the expense at all; and thus « ti,. T>^,„,r tj;i i • n „ ,, }=• ^ 

a great expense will be incurred L those wh^ are of no TestI^:n?rrfi'.^'t.Sta<=S.\^ 

denomination, cut we shall advert to this hereafter. — Testament was printed some years after at Douay ;'the English 

Sir, particular exception has been taken to our memorial, J<'™i'3 having removed their monastery from Rheiins to Douay 

and the gentleman did us the honor to take it up seriatim, ^<=^°'%}^^'' version of the Old Testament was completed. In the' 

u u u J iL /• •. '^. .' year lalb, an edition.including; both the Douav Old anH iho ■ri>«,t, 

paragragh by paragraph ; and therefore it may be requi- :sh New Testament, was issued at Dublin, contS a are™ 

site that 1 should thus follow him. 1 now then pass to ber of comments, replete with impiety, irreligion and the most 

another of the condemned passages which it contains : — fi"^"-! persecution." ' 

,,^rr *u tiu J- ^iu T,-, , The Right Rev. Bishop Hughes. From what Hn vnn 

" We are sorry that the reading of the Bible in the public schools, „„ J ? ° ^ ^ '""i wnai ao you 

without note or commentary, is offensive to them ; but we cannot ,p, " t> -r> r> 

allow the holy scriptures to be accompanied with (Adr notes and ^"^ Kev. Dr. iiOND. 1 read from the second para- 
commentaries, and to be put into the hands of the children, who graph of the " Introductory Address to Protestants " of 
may hereafter be the rulers and legislators of our beloved country ; an edition of the Rhemish Testament published in INew 
because, among other bad things taught in these commentaries, is to Vr,>-t Tf ;» o.t=„t„^ k„ „„ n cKu "°"Y" '" ^^^w 
be found the lawfulness of murderhig heretics; and the unqalified , . • i ^"^^'^"^ ''>' gentlemen of the highest repu- 
submission in all matters of conscience to the Eoman Catholic '^"°n '" ">'s country — by men that will compare in char- 
Church." acter with any gentlemen — Protestant or Catholic in 

Sir, we confess if we march to our object, it must be Zt TZ'rL^.^'LtZwf' '' '' \V". 7 P^'^^''^" °f 

by a plain road. We are a plain people, but we com- 1582^'' Testament which was published at Rheims in 
promise nothing on the subject of religion. The Right 

Reverend gentleman denied that such are the contents " That edition was published under the direction of all the digni- 

of their books, and to confirm his opinion, he offers to ':^:l/^I^i^Z^^,^^h-^^''^^^Z^^ 

bet me a thousand dollars. Sir, the Right Reverend urged the hatred and murder of Protestants, attracted the attrntion 

gentleman must excuse me. He tells us our religion is of the British churches ; and to use the words of T. Hartwell Home 

a young religion. Be it so sir, but our Church is old ^^'^^ edition of the Rhemish Testament printed at Dublin in ISie' 



equivalent. Now, should I accept the gentleman's of- "This publication, with many others of a similar character, pro- 

fer and cover his thousand dollars, he, or else I, should ,^ '° great an excitement in Britain that finally several of the 

♦=!,«. *u„ „•, f .u .u , "c, ui CISC 1, Buuulu most prominent of the Irish Roman Prelates were ca led before the 

take the money of he other without an equivalent. It English Parliament to prove their own work. Then, and upon oath 

may be conformable with the creed of the Right Rev. with all official solemnity, they peremptorily disclaimed the vol ' 



umes 



gentleman, but he must allow me to have my " consci- published by their own instigation, and under their own super- 

entious scruples," and I shall accord the same to him T"'"" T^ !'uHI^''t?' ^°°^", "^ "° autliority ; because they had not 

But if I do not take up his bet I will try to do better. ^<=^" ^^''fi^^ by the Pope, and received by the whole Papal Church." 

We have said in our memorial that their commentaries Now have we made any mistake in calling this a Cath- 

teach the lawfulness of murdering heretics. That is the o'ic Commentary ? It must be admitted we have some 

first step. Now we are bound to sustain this; at least ground for it. And now for some of the "Annotations" 

we are bound to show this Common Council on what au- *° ^^°"' '^^ ground we have for alleging that they do 

thority we state this. We are bound to submit our au- 'each the lawfulness of murdering heretics. 

thority to the Common Council, and then any gentleman "And the servants said to him, wilt thou we go and gather it 

will be able to make up his own mind on the subject. I "P'" 

hold in my hand, sir, what is called "The Rhemish New Mr. Alderman Graham (Chairman.) Will the speak- 

Testamenf," and it is proper that I should here say, that er give the page. 

we have not said in our memorial, that these Catholic Com- The Rev. Dr. Bond. The 44th page, and the 28th 

mentaries have received the sanction of the proper au- verse of the 13th chapter of Matthew. 

thorities of that church. We said no such thing. We "And he said, No; lest perhaps gathering up the cocHe, you 

said Oattiolic Commentaries, and I know of no Commen- may root up the wheat also together with it." 

taries among Protestants, that have received the sane- Now for the Commentary. 

tion ot a Protestant Church; and yet, do we not call <'t, a h, , 4.u -, 1, -^ ■ 

♦Viorr. T>.-,>foot f ;„ i J- .• ,■ .^ '-)"■' "'° ""l-^i" 'The good must tolerate the evil, when it IS so strciiff that it pan- 

them Protestant in contradistinction to Catholic Com- not be redressed without danger and disturbance orthe who?e 

mentaries ? All we have then to prove, is this, that this Church, and commit the matter to God's judgment in the latter day 

Rhemish New Testament is a Catholic New Testament, Othervvise where ill men, be they Heretics or'other malefactors, may 




lated among Catholics, that it was translated for that them? And turning 

purpose, and is therefore a Catholic Commentary. That ^P'"' yo" '''"e." 

is all we contend for. We do not insist that the Right Now for the " Annotation." 

Rev. gentleman, or any Church Council, or His Holiness "Not justice nor all rigorous punishment of sinners is here forbid- 

himself countenances it. We could not summon His den, nor Elias' fact reprehended, nor the Church or Christian Princes 

Holiness to testify 011 the subject; but in order to ascertain '?'™^/''°'' R""'"? heretics to death : hut that none of these should be 

tho ..,£>;,.^>^ „<• .v.„ 1,- 1 ■ 1 J r- .1 ' "•"'""-^"•"'" done for desire of our particular revenue, or without discretion and 

the weight of the historical record of that church, we regard of their amendment, and example to others. ThereforPeter 



32 

used his power upon Ananias and Saphira, when he struck them both received the sanction of the Church, but was only circu- 

down to death for defrauding the Church." r u i ^ u l^'ed among and sanctioned by a small portion of it, the 

I quote from the 11 6th page, the 23d verse of the 14th church was not responsible for it, as it was not of Catho- 

chapter of St. Luke. ^ „ . , „ , lie authority. We have not said in our memorial, that 

" And the Lord said to the servant, go forth into the ways and -, , i .i ,1 ■• ,• j 1 ,1 11 

hedgt : and compel them to enter, that my house may be filled." '' had the authority or was sanctioned by the church. 

Now for the Commentary. "^ know of no translation into any vulgar tongue which 

"The vehement persuasion that God useth, both externally by force has received the sanction of Pope or Council- The latin 

of his word and miracles, and internally by his grace, to bring us unto vulgate only has been SO sanctioned. We only allege 

him, is called compelling: not that he forceth any to come to him ^^ ^^^^ ^^^js js j^ Catholic publication, or that it is pub- 

aeainst their wills, but that he can alter and moUitv a hard heart, ,• 1 j u n iU i- j 4u\ »i n iU i- r? 

afd make him willing that before would not. Augustine also refer- I'^hed by Catholics ; and that these are Catholic Coni- 

eth this compelling to the penal laws which Catholic Princes do mentanes. And we again atfarm all we have said. _We 

justly use against iieretics and Schismatics, proving that they who have moreover alleged, that " among other bad things 

are by their former profession in Baptism, subject to the Catholic taught in these Commentaries, is to be found the absolute 
Church, and are departed from the same atter Sects, may and ouE;ht j i-c 1 u • • • n ™ tt „f • «« 

to be compelled into the unity and society of the universal chu?ch and unqualified submission in all matters of conscience 

again : and therefore, in this sense, by the two former parts to the Roman Catholic Church." But as it has been 

ot the parables, the Jews first, and secondly the Gentiles, that never admitted that the church has this authority with all who 

believed before in Christ, were inrited by fair sweet means only: submit to that church, it is unnecessary to prove that the 

but by the third such are invited as the Church of God hath power Commentaries teach it. 

over, because they promised in baptism, and thereiore are to be re- r ii j 11 • 

yoked not only by gentle means, but by just punishment also." Sir, the next complaint was ot the following para- 

I quote from the Annotations of the 23d verse of the graph: 
20th chapter of St John "The Roman Catholics complain that books have been introduced 

"The earthly Princes indeed have also power to bind, but the {"^"the public schools, which are injurious to them as a body. It 

bodies only: but that bond of Priests which I speak of, toucheth is allowed, however, that the passages in these books, to which such 

the very soul itself, and reacheth even to the heavens: insomuch, reference is made, are chiefly, if not entirely historical ; and we 

that whatsoever the Priests shall do beneath, the self-same God doth put it to the candor of the Common Council to say whether any 

ratify above, and the sentence of the servants of the Lord doth con- '^ift°[y of Europe, for the last ten centuries, could be written, 

firm, for indeed what else is this than that the power of all heavenly w'^»^^ "."^ either omit to mention the Roman Catholic Church or 

things is granted them of God ?" "^""f '' ^Tx'*°"' f ^?"!"?? '"^t,°"':^' /'":^\ unfavorable to that 

T „„rt« A.„™ „ 01 /I „„,„„ 11 „!,„„*„> Of; ^f tlr Church? We assert that it all the historical facts m which the 

I quote from page 214, verse 11, chapter 2o of the ^^^^^^ ^^ j^^^^ ^^^ t^j.^^ ^ prominent part could be taken from 

Acts. writers of her own communion only, the incidents might be made 

" I appeal to Cesar." ^ more objectionable to the complainants, than any book to which 

This is the Annotation. they now object." 

"If Paul both to save himself from whipping and from death s;^ ^^e gentleman did not deny this, for, as I recollect, 

sought by the Jews, doubted not to cry for honor of the Roman , -j •<. * u „j™'h„j a tu^t 'f „ii tu„ u;„tn»: 

law's, and to appeal to Cesar, the Prince of the Romans, not yet ^e said it was true -he admitted '< that if all the histon- 

christened : how much more may we call for aid of Christian Prin- cal facts in which the Church ot Kome has taken a prom- 

ces and their laws, for the punishment of Heretics, and for the inent part, could be taken from writers of her own com- 

church's defence against them." munion only, the incidents might be made more objec- 

I quote from Annotations, on the 10th chapter of He- tionable," because they always write the truth. But 

brews 2yth verse, on page 373. ■ then he alleges that they also record a great many good 

"Heresy and Apostacy from the Catholic faith, punishable by things. Certainly they have written " some good things," 

^T -11 III „ „ . ~. „„j .1 „4 - r „ .u but it is not from these "good things" exclusive! y'that his- 

I will make but one more extract and that is Irom the ^ ■ , , v. -^ ■ ^ ^1 ,1 j ^i ■ n^r ^ 



,,,.,.,,,,,. • -c u 41, 1 , r ,', iu could we be taught by example if we only saw the bright 

" It IS plain, that this woman signiheth the whole corps ot all the . , ^ , . ° •\ . . , , 1 . , " ^ /-, , , ° 
persecutors that have and shall shed so much blood of the just : of S'^e ot _ the picture and not the dark side too ? Could any 
the Prophets, Apostles, and other Martyrs, from the beginning of such history be useful 1 If we see buf a partial record, 
the world to the end. The Protestants foolishly expound it of how can M'e avoid error? History is a beacon and a 
Rome for that there they put Heretics to death, and allow of their ^.j^^^j [^^ ^^^uld it be so— would it be a proper directo- 

Eunishment in other countries: But their blood is not called the -c -^ 1 ■ j 1 ii 1 1 ■ 1 111 ■ 1 • c 

lood of the Saints, no more than the blood of thieves, man-MUers, ry if it contained only that which could be said in favor 
and other malefactors : for the shedding of which by order of jus- of any religious sect or denomination? Such a record 
tice, no commonwealth shall answer." would be worthless as a history. The blessed Bible does 

A friend suggests to me that I may also say theRhem- not do so. Does any history contain a more particular 
ish New Testament is not found in the Prohibitory Index ; record than this Book does of the lapses and falls of the 
but I do not assert that this is in itself conclusive, for most eminent people of God ? Does not the faithful 
there are, I must admit, thousands of books that are not page of the sacred historian, record the fall of David? Ye.s, 
forbidden, for which Catholics are not responsible. All sir, it records that that man — that holy Psalmist himself 
we contend for, is this, that this book was published at fell, being overcome by temptation, into the crimes of 
Rheims by the Jesuits ; that they subsequently remov- murder and adultery. Sir, it is a faithful history and I 
ed to and republished it at Douay; since that it was repub- would desire that all our histories should lecord all the 
lished in Ireland under the sanction of the Catholic Dig- good of Roman Catholics, but they must record the evil 
nitaries and of a large number of the Priesthood of that also, or they are not histories at all. But we have said 
church. But when it was found that this work had creat- " History, then, must be falsified for their accommoda- 
ed great alarm in England, and these very dignitaries tion,"and would it not be so if only that which was good of 
were called before the British Parliament, they did not them were recorded ? " And yet they complain that the 
say it had not their sanction, but they alleged that be- system of education adopted in the Public Schools, does 
cause it was not sanctioned by His Holiness, and had not not teach the sinfulness of lying !" It may be painful to 



35 



pleasuie, substitute tlu. p obat.onary relation, by one you grant their request in order that you may remove 

before any man, or any number of man, whether Pope or their cause of complaint, you de^trov the Puwfc sZoI 

Council, or the Methodist General Conference. None system and you may tak^ your leave of it fmm thft 

Of these can release us from our obligations as pro- ioment ; th'^e whol^. fabrifwi ul^mbl i^to^^^^^^^^^^^ 

bationers before God. " To our own master we stand elements-it cannot stand ^ 

orfall." If the Methodist Episcopal Church had issued But why should this system of public education be 

her mandate to me not to appear before this .body, and abandoned? Is it to appeLe the scrClus conse°ences 

not to oppose this apphcation, I would have set her au- of the Catholics ^ The pxi^itPnr-P nf Jm . ^""^'^'ences 

thorit, at nought, We beiieye that these Public Schools the public' sctoi systtrcaSra f c^S r^^nS^Jef 

are necessary to our form of government ; that U is not for they are not compelkd to send their children to the 

^uhl I hT ^T'"'^ -T ^""^ perpetuation of the public schools. HaVe they then any scruples of con- 

Uitu.ht mlitui trth"'' \"^'"" T"- '° '" rf°'r'' ''""''' ^''°"' P^y'"g taxes for the supjort of'this h stitu- 

D Sin J fhi v^^^ I ^1'^ ''" ","^f '^i' °^ 'P; "°"- ^''^^ ^'gh' Keyerend gentleman tells you him e"f 

pieciating then value, or who may be made the dupes of they have not, for he tells yoS they have not comolSned 

better educated but more wicked men. We say it is ne- and do not intend to complab of thVap Jopr atfon by ?he 

cessary to the perpetuation of public Hberty that the com- Legislature of money raised by taxST Protestant 

unity be educated-that all who exercise the elective colleges. If, then, sir, you vieM th^lims of th^^^^^^ 

But wrs'avZt n r '"T- '" r'r °"" f i' '.-«t.-''-- °l--^r H wm 'not be to 'tLh- conscLntit oVectn^ iSt" 

£ dmfe by a 1 to^eth.?" K ' ''" ^° '^" ' ' i.^u'' ^"'^ y'^'*^' ''"' '° '^'^ ^"<^g^^ ^ '"j"^"ce of compelling then^ 

be done by all together. If you were to give all this to contribute to a public benefit, from which thev as a 

money to the sects, it could not be done-it can only be sect, derive no advLntace. You must Ihen s r ^^ far 

done by a common system, for if all the sects had this ther'; you must release all fromThepSnt of taxes 

money divided amongs them, there is one half of the who 'cannot conscientiously avaiT tLmKs of the ad 

auXtZk'm wt til i^t'V'"" '^'"/'r V.' vantages oifered by the public schooCand this w'u t- 

dreS^ O, ; n .hll.Tf 1 become of these chil- elude most of the large property holders in the city-for 

tl^J O"'^ Pi-b he hberties demand a public universal these being able to aflford i , are bound by parental duty 

system of education, and this can only be effected by to atFord t1,eir children a better education^an can be 

si t TclnnlJl T ^y\l' ''"^ ^"7-^"^ '' *1- g'v-en in the public schools. Yet these a" not on J wS 

btat., it can never be done if the money be given to any ling to pay taxes for the support of public schools but 

denomination or divided among all the sects. Sir, we hav% petitioned the LegislatuTto tax ^th m for th s 'pur 

S htols are e Tabh^hed '^'^ t! °" ^'"' "Y ''"T"'' P°^^' ''^'^^"^^ '^^^ "« ^-"'^ '^^' '^^ education of'the 

no ri "ht to Hv . ti V /A I ^7'^; r^ -^"^ ^'^f P"""" ^'"^^'^^ '^ necessary to the common welfare. 

no light to lay a ax at all ; you could not lay a tax with But sir, I adverted to a foreign Potentate • and I did 

triL^^H ■ '.^" ^'Z^'°''- ^^ '^'^ T'^'y '^ '° ^' '^'^- '^y ^ 'l««''-«d to know where his spiritual authority ceased 

tributed among he different sects and denominations of And I am the more desirous of knowin^^his S^ause it 
christians, and they are to use it as they think best,eyen is alleged, and the Right Rev. gentfoman ou'ht to know 
for then- own proselyting purposes-I speak of no parti- if it be true, that by the oath'taken by the ^1°^ 
cu a denom,nation---all have their preferences and pecu- of that chur'ch, they are bound to suppU a li tie more 
liar tenets, and all desire to make converts to their belief than the Pope's spiritual authority, /wil make no as 
-I say give the n.oney to this end, and what follows 1 sertion, but I throw it out that the Ri^ht Rev gentleman 
Why hat you ought to tax theni severally according to may say whether his oath of ordination doefnot^nd 
what they receive. What right have you to tax Roman him to a little more. Sir, I did say, and I emphat lallv 
Catholics for the support of Methodist Schools ? or what repeat, that it is very desirable his follow citizens should 
right have you to tax Methodists for the support of Pres- know where that civil and spiritual authority terminate 
byterian Schools ? In short, what right have you to tax I beg pardon for intruding so Ion., upon your at eTtion •" 
yLTJ°^ the. support of the Schools of rival sects ? I ha^i gone through our memoriaf, aTd "hit is all we ask' 
You have first to ascertain what each requires to support At present I have nothin<r more to say 
the schools under their care, and then to tax that denomi- THp Opnilpmpn ,„!,. o i .u 

nation to the necessary amount. You have no ri<.ht to fV, ^^e bre""emen who appeared as the representatives of 

tax me as a Methodisf, for the Roman Calholic SchLS tlrfT^Tkl^Lnt^nZTT^ .''"^^ T" '"'% 

but only on the ground that education is necessary for the Board? ^'''"^'"^ mqu.red-What is the pleasure of 

the preservation of our public liberties and for the public . , , , " j , 

safety. Fall back upon the plan you formerly pursued and Alderman moved that if there were other gentlemen 

youwillagainhearofcomplaintsamontrthesects tbatthey P'''^f"' ^ • °®--""^'^' '° ^^ heard, that they be heard on 

do not receive from the public fund according to Arhat they ^'^"'^'"^ '"^''' "^"^68 to the President ; which was agreed to. 

pay in. Now the Methodists, perhaps, pay much less ^,'"- Sweenev said that he appeared, with several other 

thansomeother denominations who are less numerous than g'^ntlemen as a committee from the Catholics, but they 

themselves. We make it a part of our religion to pay our ^"l^arew their claim to be heard, as the Rigjjt Rev. Bishop 

taxes if we are able ; but we have very little to be taxed Hug'^es was entitled to a reply. 

at all ; and if we have but little to be taxed, we pay but D^. David M. Reese, M. D., (who is a Preacher in the 

little ; and yet we could supply more children than some Methodist Episcopal Church) rose and^id ■ 

fherhavfno rS trcomola'^f 7"' .T°f '''^ '^'- P^^^'^^"'' ' ^^'^'^ ^^-'f °f 'he permission granted 
Slishp!i nn r^f • '=°."'P.^^'" '^ *h«^,« '^h°°^^ ^ere by the board to add a few observations on another branch 
cples vtuWnot^^^^^^ °^ '^' subject which is interesting to us alUowhTchl 

I is cleaJtha vo, en IH f '"f i M" '""^ ^\''^'' ' '^''"'' ^°' " '"°™^"' ""1^ '° ^^'^'' your attention. It ap- 
And tf you cono^drtb refute these complaints pears to me, sir. that neither Romanism, nor Protestantisfti 

And It you concede the prayer of these petitioners, if is on trial here, and the question submitted to this honour^. 



36 

tie board is not whether the Roman Catholic Church shall citizens who are found peacefully enjoying their rights and 
have the exclusive control of any portion of the public trea- liberties in this country, do not receive an equivalent for the 
siTe, collecfed by public t;t:-;ritior! for ibo purpose cT j>.i.il'!ic tasts ^\hieli thry j :iy, ;i, tiif nropeT ex.;vcise oftiir ri-lit ,,|' 
education — Ji isnotlhequesiionwhellier the Roman Catholic suffrage which is hcrestcurtd? Whether iheyouelii not 
Church shall have it; but the great question in which we thus to contribute to the political advantages which this 
are interested as a community is, whether any denomina- happy country furnishes, and whether they do not thus 
tion, — whether any portion of this great community shall secure an ample equivalent for the taxes which they pay, 
have the exclusive control, though it be but of a single dol- even in cases where they voluntarily decline to avail them- 
lar, of the money raised by public taxation for the public selvesof the Public Schools. But, sir, I know a conscience 
benefit. I would hope therefore, if I succeed in gaining may be created in this community by a Bishop or other 
your attention to the point — to the single point I submit to dignitary. Let them but turn their churches into Bear 
you, to call you for a moment from every consideration of a Gardensand agitate theircongregaticnsby excitingspeeches 
sectarian aspect. Indeed, I humbly concieve that religious as has been done on this subject, and others will be taught 
creeds — that sectarian creeds of any kind whatever arc not to plead their newly excited consciences beside Roman 
at issue in the present controversy. If this application had Catholics. And shall this great community be de- 
come from Protestants as a body — from any political or prived of this system because such a conscience is cre- 
leligious sect, however numerous, or powerful, or popular ated? But if there can be no conscience in the mat- 
they might be, the same objection would lie against the ter in truth, the point is narrowed down to the ques- 
application, from whatever source it might come. I tion — Is it a hardship to pay a tax for a public benefit 
humbly submit therefore, whether the Eight Rev. Gentle- when Ave thus forego the advantages? Or ought every 
man to whom we had the pleasure to listen last night, man who does not avail himself of the advantages which 
would not have served the public more effectually by in- the system furnishes, to be exempted from taxation? We 
structing his people that the opposition to this claim is 7iot know a disposition to avoid taxation exists in thousands, 
an opposition to the Roman Catholics, but to the principle and if conscience is to be an excuse, conscience will easily 
of appropviating money raised by taxation for public pur- be started to avoid the payment, and the result will be that 
poses, to any party whatever, for their exclusive control, no public education could be sustained here or elsewhere. 
I say the Rev. Gentleman would have been serving the As well might the petitioners ask for a separate Alms 
public, and would have been doing nothing unworthy of House or a separate Hospital for their exclusive accommo- 
his highly honourable, and sacred office, if he had applied dation, and allege the hardship of paying a tax for the sup- 
himself to enlightening his people on this point — that port of these public charities, while their consciences would 
the present opposition is not an opposition to their creed not allow them to take shelter there, in time of adversity; 
'or to tlieir church, but that the same opposition would be because forsooth, a Protestant Bible is sometimes found 
against any other denomination equally as numerous, and there, and a Protestant chaplain sometimes reads a chapter 
equally as respectable. Certainly, Sir, this would have there, for the consolation of the sick and dying, 
been more worthy of his sacred office than haranguing his Sir, it is the enlightened public policy of our city, state, 
people in their public assemblies for the purpose of exciting and nation, to provide and perpetuate the facilities for edu- 
prejudices against the Public Schools.- Before these preju- eating the entire population in the rudiments of secular 
dices were created, when these people had not yet been taught learning, and to support these and other public institutions 
to look upon them as odious, the Roman Catholics sent their by public taxation. The provision is free for all, and all 
children to these schools, and availed themselves thankfully contribute to its maintainance. But if individuals among 
of their benefits. But now many of them have abstracted us choose to educate their own children, and refuse to avail 
their children, merely because harangues of that kind have themselves of the Public Schools, the act is their own, but 
been made which are calculated to create disaffection in no wise furnishes them a pretext to complain. Espe- 
amongst them. Sir, the opposition made to this memorial cially, when such individuals establish sectarian schools, in 
is neither sectarian nor religious; and this being premised, which with the secular knowledge imparted, their own re- 
it is impossible that it can involve a question of conscience ligious tenets are to be taught; is it not passing strange, 
at all. What is the question ? It is complained that men that they should wish to impose upon all other religions, 
having taxed themselves, and having paid that tax, for a the tax of sustaining those schools, in which their own re- 
given purpose — the public benefit — have afterwards vol- ligion is exclusively to be inculcated ? I care not whether 
untarily chosen in the exercise of their freedom, in this such individuals be Roman Catholics or Protcsiants, they 
free country, to forego the benefits provided for the public cannot by possibility possess any right of conscience, which 
indiscriminately. All are taxed for public education which will give them a claim to impose upon any other man's 
is given by the Public Schools ; but a portion of the citizens conscience, the burden of supporting their sectarian or ex- 
choose to relinquish the advantages of these schools; the elusive schools. Nor can the money raised by public tax- 
question then resolves itself into this, is it sound public ation to support Public schools, be expended in any other 
policy to tax the citizens generally for a public purpose schools than those of strictly public character, which de- 
when any portion, on whom the tax is imposed, choose not nominational schools cannot be in the nature of things, 
to avail themselves of its advantages? You see in this The system of the New York Public School society, 
aspect that it 'strikes at the whole Public School System ; secures confessedly every desirable facil ty for secular 
for if the Roman Catholics are to be excused because they learning, to an extent commensurate with the population, 
chose to forego tlij^ advantages provided, every other sect, No religious test is required as a qualification for the office 
whether for the sake of party politics or religion, might of teacher in these schools, and both trustees and teachers 
take the same attitude and plead the same conscience, and are promiscuously taken from all denominations, a number 
the result would be that there would be no provision made of Roman Catholics being engaged both as trustees and 
for public education, and the rising generation in multitudes teachers. Great care however is taken to have none em- 
would grow up like "the wild asses' colt." ployed in these schools as teachers, but persons of good mo- 
Now Ja this aspect I humbly submit whether our fellow ral character, and while all the peculiarities of doctrin^ 



33 

them, but are we to have no feeling? But the Right it will be a long time before they get old enough to do so. 
Rer. gentleman told us that the Methodist Episcopal But individually they act in these matters as others do- 
Church isja young church, and that this was the reason why and it is to honor of the Methodist denomination in 
there were not many very bad things said of us. He said England, that their members generally gave their whole 
our church was only a hundred years old ; yet a great weight and influence to Mr. Wilberforce in all his be- 
many bad things may be done in a hundred years. But nevolent efforts in favor of civil and relio-ious liberty, 
we have not escaped unscathed, though perhaps the gen- During his long struggle against the slave trade such 
tleman may notknow it. Why sir, Mr. O'Connell has pub- was their attachment to him and his cause, that in some 
lished that our Founder, Mr. Wesley, aided and abetted parts of England collections were made at the doors of 
Lord George Gordon's mob ! Yes, that if Wesley did their places of worship to aid in defraying the expenses 
not originate, he aided and abetted it ; so that we have of his election. 

not escaped unscathed. But the Rev. gentleman went But we have said " This is not all. They have been 
further. He said we had done less good than any other most complaisantly offered the censorship oif the books 
denomination in Christendom. Why, we are not asking to be used in the pubhc schools. The committee to 
this Council any reward for what we have done; we whom has been confided the management of these schools 
makenopretentions; whether we have done good we leave in this city, offered to allow the Roman Catholic Bishop 
others to decide. All we claim is, that we have stood to expurgate from these books any thing offensive to him. 
in our lot. We believe the different sects and denomina- But the offer was not accepted; perhaps for the same 
tions in Christendom are permitted of God for wise pur- reason that he declined to decide on the admissibility of 
poses. We would not swallow them up if we could. — a book of extracts from the Bible, which had been sanc- 
We would not cross the street to make all other Pro- tioned by certain Roman Bishops in Ireland An appeal, 
testants members of our church. We have our work ; it seems, had gone to the Pope on the subject, and no- 
we cannot do their work ; they cannot do ours. We make thing could be said or done in the matter until his Holi- 
no claim ; but if we have not done a great deal of good, nesa had decided. The Common Council of New York 
how can the gentleman with propriety profess so much vvill therefore find, that when fliey shall have conceded 
respect for us ? If we had done good we should not have to the Roman Catholics of this city the selection of 
escaped, any more than our brethren, so significantly and books for the use of the public schools, that these books 
appropriately termed Friends : they have done good, yet must undergo the censorship of a foreign Potentate — - 
they have not escaped any more than ourselves. It is to We hope the time is far distant when the citizens of this 
them that the world owes the increasing disapproval of country will allow any foreign power to dictate to them 
war, and though they have not been able to accomplish in matters relating to either general or municipal law." 
what they desire, and though they have been unresisting- To this it is objected simply that the Roman Catholics 
ly oppressed, they have borne a patient testimony to their of this country acknowledge the supremacy of the Pope 
doctrine, and with the revolutions of this world, the day only in spiritual things, that they do not acknowledge in 
will come when war will be no more. And have they him either political, or civil, or any other than spiritual 
not borne a holy testimony against Slavery ; not a tur- authority. Well, sir, we have not said they did, in our 
bulent and an abusive testimony, but such as comports memorial. What then is the complaint ? We did not 
withthedoctrines they teach, and yet they have not escap- undertake to determine whether the submitting to his 
ed ; though they have confessedly done a great deal of Holiness the question whether a book shall be used in 
good. It has been said that the Methodist Epis- our schools is a spiritual or temporal matter. But we really 
copal Church in England never favored the rights of con- wish to know where temporal jurisdiction ends and spir- 
science, nor aided in the enlargement of liberty. Why itual jurisdiction begins. We should like to have some 
there is no Methodist Episcopal Church in England at definite boundary — some line of demarcation drawn be- 
all. The Methodist Society in England, claims only to tween temporal and spiritual authority. We did consider 
be a Society within the pale of the Church of England, the public schools a secular matter altogether — 
as the Jesuits are a society within the pale of the Catholic ^^ did think it a temporal matter to decide what books 
Church. If it be alleged that the Methodist Society are should be used in our public schools, for professedly 
not acknowledged by the Church of England, it will ^^^7 <^o "Hot intend to interfere with the peculiarities of 
not be forgotten that the order of Jesuits have been sup- ^^Y sect. But if this is really a spiritual matter where will 
pressed by the Pope. It seems, however, that the latter '' ®nd ? What is it, it cannot reach ? What is it, it will 
have been restored, and so our friends in England seem "o' reach ? If it is a spiritual matter, then all that is 
to be getting high in favor with the English establish- necessary to carry out spiritual dominion must be grant- 
ment; yet we owe them no allegiance; we send them no ^^i a"d when was it that to enforce spiritual dictation 
books to be sanctioned before we venture to use them in temporal power was not resorted to if practicable ? The 
our schools; in short we do not admit their right to die- t'™" was when to enforce this spiritual authority a whole 
tate to us in any matter whatever. It is in this country country was laid under interdict. Who does not know 
only, that there exists any Methodist Episcopal Church, 'hat the time was when the churches in England were all 
But we are told that the Methodists in England have ^^ng in black, when the dead were unburied, when the 
never taken any part, or given an}' aid, in the struggle children were not baptized, and when nothing was done 
for religious liberty. It is true, sir, that the Methodists by the clergy which the community esteemed essential 
in England, like ths Methodists here eschew all parti- to their eternal interests, and subjects absolved from 
cipation in political strife, a.s a society or church. They their allegiance, because the King refused to submit to 
do not think it any part of their vocation to call meet- the Pope of Rome. This power may not exist here; 
ings in their churches, and address them on the political the pretension may have been abandoned ; but if it 
questions of the day, as some other churches do. Per- has been, I should like to know it. I should like to 
haps they are too young a church for this, and we hope know where the boundary ig between temporal and 
6 



34 

spiritual power. I should like, for the first time, to olics will, if they get the power, persecute the Protee- 
be tausht whether they consider the common interests tantS; than they can have of persecution from Protes- 
of education a secular or a spiritual matter, and if a sec- tants. If they can say they do not believe as their 
ular whether it is to be interfered with by this spiritual fathers did, we may hope (hey will not do as their fathers 
power? As yet it cannot be determined what books have done; but while their motto continues to be " sem- 
■will be tolerated in the public schools by the Ronran per eadem," while they continue to declare that their 
Catholic Bishop, while an appeal has gone to the Eoman church is always and every where the same, we think, 
Pontitr, — nothing can be done here until his answer is sir, we may not dismiss our fears. Let them renounce 
received! The gentleman did not deny this last night, their infallibility and we will be cured of our apprehen- 
when it was so alleged on the part of the Public School sions. But again. 

Society, and therefore he must pardon me if 1 believe it. " Your memorialists had hoped that the intolerance and 
Sir, we did, in our memorial, regret that our Roman exclusiveness which had chara-cterized the Eoman Cath- 
Catholic fellow citizens, in their address, should have olic Church in Europe, had been greatly softened under 
referred to the martyrs of their Charch who suffered for the benign influences of our civil institutions. The per- 
opinion's sake, and we did say it was an unfortunate al- tinacity with which their sectarian interests are now 
lusion. It was unfortunate because it was addressed to urged, has dissipated the illusion. We were content 
all classes of the community, and because in this commu- with their having excluded us, "ex cathedra," from all 
nity there are strangers from abroad, of all countries, claim to heaven, for we were sure they did not possess 
among whom there are descendants of protestants who the' keys, notwithstanding their confident pretension, nor 
suffered for their religion. We said it was an unfortu- did we complain that they would not allow us any partici- 
nate allusion, and vs.e said so because it would revive in pation in the benefits of purgatory, for it is a place they 
the minds of many the memories of their ancestors, and have made for themselves, and of which they may claim 
they would thereby be reminded of the revocation of the the exclusive propriety; but we do protest against any 
Edict ofNantz, the massacre of St. Bartholomew's day, appropriation of the public school fund for their exclu- 
the fires of Smithfield, or the crusade against the Wal- siv.e benefit, or for any other purposes whatever." 
denses. Now we did not mean to say that the Right Now the Right Rev. gentleman ought to have remark- 
Eev. gentleman has power to do these things now, we ed here an error of the printer; the omission of the 
did not intend to insinuate that our Roman Catholic fel- word " sectarian ;" and instead of " any other purpose 
low citizens would persecute now ; but we said it was whatever " it should have read " any other sectarian 
unfortunate, and was it not unfortunate to do anything purpose whatever." 

to revive the recollection of scenes so painful? But we Sir, the gentleman admits we are right ; they do ex- 
said we were desirous to cover all these scenes with the lude su from heaven ; but then he alleges that we are as 
mantle of charity, and the gentleman rebukes us. He bad as we said they were, for we exclude Catholics, 
tells us to attempt to do no such thing, for our mantle is Now, if there are any that do not allow that good pious 
too narrow. Well, I suppose he does not mean to prac- Roman Catholics are going to heaven, I do not know it. 
tice this virtue himself, but to revive feelings in Protes- If there are any such in our denomination, it is unknown 
tants which we should wish not to recollect if it could be to me ; I hold no such opinions, and I hope the gentle- 
prevented. But he adverts to their sufferings for con- man himself will take it back again, when I assure him 
science sake, and he went into details of the persecu- that the founder of Methodism, John Weslev, published 
tions of Catholics in England. Now, sir, we are not the life of Baron De Rentz, and that he abridged and 
here to justify persecution, nor to make excuse for it — published '• Kempis' Christian Pattern," both of which 
we hate it, and we love to hate it — but we are here to have been widely circulated amongst our people. We do 
say, and we must be allowed to say, that whatever may not deny that Roman Catholics may go to heaven ; nor 
be alleged against Protestants about persecution, that we did we complain that we were denied any participation 
are at liberty to be better than our fathers; we are at in the benefits of their purgatory ; but the gentleman tells 
liberty to renounce both the practice and the tenets of us to go farther and fare worse. Sir, we will take our 
our fathers if they are found to be wrong. We say that chance for that — we willtake our chance of faring worse 
when Protestants persecuted Catholics they ^ere not and of getting to heaven too. But if the gentleman de- 
half reformed — that they had brought much that was un- nies us the benefit of his purgatory in the ne.xt world, we 
christian out of the Church from which they had come, hope he will allow us the benefits of this world. If he 
But we have learned better now ; we have abandoned will allow our children the benefit of the Public Schools 
those tenets and practices. Let the Right Rev. gentle- — of a place where they can learn to read God's holy 
man say as much for himself ; let him say that with them word; if he will not persist in a measure which will 
it is not semper eadem, always the same. Let him say destroy these schools — we willtake our chance of going 
that the Roman Church has erred in matters of faith or farther and faring worse. If he w'ill allow our children 
that she can err, and then the difficulty between Pro- a place where they can learn to read that Book which as 
testants and Catholics will cease from that moment. If the great Mr. Locke says, has God fcr its author, salva- 
the Catholics of the United States are at liberty to think tion for its end, and truth without any mixture of error, 
for themselves on these subjects, and dissent from what- for its matter ; we will not complain of any other exclu- 
ever they believe is not according to the word of God— sion he may insist upon in the matter. But it is alleged 
either their translation or the original — if they are at that wc are here to oppose Roman Catholics. Sir, we 
liberty to do this, the difficulty is at an end. But while would oppose the Methodists if the same application was 
they are bound by the decrees of an infallible Church — made by them. I would have stood here myself to op- 
while they are not to determine anything for themselves pose them, for I do not fear nor dodge any rcsponsihili- 
as a matter of faith — while they are not to believe that ty. We believe that all mankind are individually under- 
their church can at any time be wrong in opinion — that goins a moral and intellectual probation before God; 
sho can never err; we have more cause to fear that Calh- and that we cannot, without incurring the divine dis- 



religion 
what tes 



39 

, in opposition to sectarianism ; and in all this of time. When it was separated from the ehurchee as 
stimony have we that these schools tend to Infi- such and assumed its present shape, it was asoleinn matter 
deiity 1 For what shall we change the Bible, the Holy of compromise and contract on the part of the corporation 
Book of God which announces divine truths to man l and the Public School Society, 1 do not say it was a 
Shall we exchange this Bible for the teaching of the Ro- contract in writing, but this was the understanding of all 
man Catholic school master ? Which is the best adapt- our churches: We were solicited to give up our rights 
ed to stem the flood of Infidelity 1 But they don't de- and denominational feelings, to which we were strongly 
sign to teach sectarianism ! What then? 1 rejoice to attached, that this large scheme might go into operation 
be able to say here, and I believe the Right Eev- gentle- and spread its influence over the community ; and the al- 
man will join with me|in saying, that he believes in one ternative with us was whether we should oppose that 
God, in one Saviour, in the Holy Ghost, the forgiveness great scheme, and continue the pilfering which had been 
of sins, the regeneration of the heart by the Holy Spirit, detected in one Society with its unpleasant attendant con- 
justification by faith, and in a future day of judgment. I sequences, or aid the Public School plan. And we sacri- 
believe he will join with me, or any one else, in the be- ficeci our feelin|sJor the general good on the sacred un- 
lief of these truths. Are they not the truths of the Bi- derstanding that the system should be continued ; and we 
ble ? And may not these truths be taught our children 'I shall consider it a violation of good faith if you grant this 
Are they not taught in Roman Catholic schools ? What, application. I can unite with some of my friends who 
then, do they desire to teach 1. Why, the peculiarities have preceded me, in saying that if this application had 
of their system, and nothing else, for all these leading come from any other denomination, I would have oppo- 
truths are taught in the Bible. He wants something,! pre- sed it ; but I cannot say that I have no greater opposition 
sume, that is not in the Bible, for the Bible is taught to it because it comes from my Catholic friends ; I do 
there, and if anything else is to be taught that is not in view it with more alarm on account of the source from 
the school, it must be something that is not in the Bible, which it comes. And any man who looks at the history 
and therefore it must be sectarian. Now we have ar- of the Catholic church, whether in or out of power, and 
rived at an age in our Republic when we see the difl^erent finds she has ever been, and in those parts of Europe 
sects and denominations, though they may not agree in where she remains in power, she continues to be almost 
all things, agreeing in all leading points— on these we uniformly the enemy of liberty, will look upon this ap- 
can meet and unite, and strengthen each ethers hands to plication with suspicion and fear. I do so not only as an 
do good in our day and generation. We therefore, as a American but as a Christian, as a Protestant, and as a 
denomination, unite wiih our brethren of other denomi- Presbyterian.' The gentleman has sought to prove that 
tions, and those of no denomination, or, in other words, the present system leads to infidelity. Now, Sir, let no 
with the representatives of every Society, to saj', let this man think it strange that I should prefer even infidelity 
fund be appropriated as it was intended to be, and let all to Catholicism. Even a mind as acute as Voltaire's, 
share alike in the education of the rising generation. For came to the conclusion that if there was no alternative be- 
myself, I could go still farther than has been gone, and tween infidelity and the dogmas of the Catholic church, 
say that these little vagrants that are sufl^ered to stroll he should choose infidelity. I would choose. Sir, in simi- 
about the streets and spend their time in idleness, I would ^^^ circumstances to be an infidel to-morrow, 
compel to. enter these schools, and I believe it would be ■^i''. President, my worthy father, I would call him 
an act of humanity, if their parents were so indifferent to brother, for my hairs are almost as grey as his, has well 
the welfare of their children that they allowed them to ^^^ that the great barrier to infidelity is the Bible. Put 
spend their time in idleness, or something worse. Let Sir, the Eight Eev. Gentleman told us yesterday he 
the State extend the hand of compassion, and take them l'^*^ no confidence in the Protestant Bible ; and yet you 
out of the streets to be taught, where they will be saved heard him, when he came to a community of Protestant 
from vicious indulgencies ; and 1 hope the time will yet citizens, ask for the bounty of the State to support such 
come when it will be done. ^ system as his ! With you, Gientlemen, the power re- 

The Rev. Dr. Spring of the Brick (Presbyterian) ""ams. I need not now after what has been said, indeed 
church, said, Mr. President, as much time has been '^'s would not be the proper place, urge any arguments 
consumed, as this question has been abundantly discus- ^' length on this subject, and therefore, I will not further 
sed, and with great ability, especially by the learned trespass on your time ; nor need I scarcely ask pardon 
counsel ; had I not been urged to say a word on behalf ^°^ detaining you so long, having been myself urged to 
of the Presbyterian church, I should not have claimed ^^7 something on behalf of the church with which I am 
your attention. I am not authorized by the Presbyterian connected. 

Church, as a church, to attend here ; but if I had, I The Pkesidekt said the closing remarks would be 
would have paid more particular attention to the subject given to the petitioners. 

than I have done. I can say with my worthy brother of ^^- Ketcham observed, that if any new matter were 
the Dutch Reformed Church, that the sentiment of the introduced, he hoped he should have the opportunity to 
church at large with which J am connected, is one of reply. The Right Rev. Gentleman opened on the part of 
entire unanimity of ardent and cordial opposition to the 'he petitioners ; he had been replied to, and it was but 
petition which is now before you from the Roman Ca- right that he should have tiio right to reply to the other 
tholic church. I will state Sir, but a single fact, without speakers ; but if he urged new matter either of fact or 
recapitulating the valuable remarks of the other gentle- argument, he, on the part of the School Society, should 
men, which has rested on my mind and may have some claim the right to reply to that new matter, 
weightin the bosom ofsome gentlemen with whom the de- The President called upon the right Rev. Dr. Hughes 
cision rests. In the providence of God, Sir, having been '° conclude the debate. 

more than thirty years in this city, I have had opportuni- The Right Rev. Bishop Hughes then rose to reply to 
ties of watching the progress of the Public School So- the arguments of all the gentlemen who had been heard on 
ciety, and of knowing some of its history in that period the subject, and he spoke nearly as follows :— 



40 



Mr President, it would require a mind of much greater 
itv [han m ne to arrange and mature the topics, rele- 
Ta^ oVt5env"se that have been introduced into this d,s- 
n^ nee I had the honour to address you yesterday. 
nT ss t a seven or eight gentlemen of great abUity have 
J^^ese^ted their lespective'views on the subject, and not only 
Tthe subject in regard to its intrmsic men s, but on sub- 
lectrwhich they deemed at least collateral, but which I 
hink quite irrelevant. The gentleman who last addressed 
vou (Dr Sprinc.,) is entitled to my acknowledgments foi 
Ihe candour with which he expressed his sentiments in re- 
ference to it, namely, that he was opposed to it more because 
it came from Catholics than if it had been presented by any 
other denomination. That gentleman is entitled to my 
acknowledgment, and I award it, if worthy of his accept- 
ance The subject— for it is exceedmgly important that 
the subject should be kept in view— is one, as I stated 
before, that is very simple. We are a portion of this 
community ; we desire to be nothing greater than any 
other portion ; we are not content to be made less 1 here 
is nothing, sir, in that system of the Public School Socie- 
ty ao-ainst which any of the gentlemen who have spoken, 
either in their individual capacity or as the representatives 
of bodies of people, have urged a single conscientious ob- 
jection, and of course they have no right to complain— 
they are satisfied, and therefore I am willing that they 
should have the system, but I am not wiUrag that they 
should press it upon me, and for good reason. And, sir, 
if this honourable body rejects the claim of your petition- 
ers, what is the issue? That we are deprived of the be- 
nefits to which we are entitled, and that we are not one 
iota worse than we were before. That is our conso ation. 
But the whole range of the argument of the gentleman 
who spoke last was to show that this Pubhc School Sys- 
tem was got up with the concurrence of public opinion, 
and that having been so got up, it had worked beautifully, 
and that gentlemen, who never heard of conscientious ob- 
jections to it, because it suits their views, deem it won- 
derful that we can have any conscience at all on the sub- 
ject That is the amount of it. What ! no ground for 
conscientious objection, when you teach our children m 
those schools that " the deceilfid Catholics burned John 
Huss at the stake, for conscience, when evidences are 
numerous before you of a more just and a more honoura- 
ble character— when you might find on the page ot his- 
tory, that in Catholic Poland every avenue to dignity in 
the state was opened to Protestants, by the concurrent vote 
of eight Catholic Bishops, whilst the vote of any one of them 
according to the constitution of the Polish Diet, of which 
they were members, could have prevented the law bemg 
passed— and what is more, when the first lesson of uni- 
Tersal toleration and freedom of conscience the world was 
ever called to learn, was set by the Catholics of Maryland 
—I speak in the presence of gentlemen who can contra- 
dict me if they know where to find the authority— and 
what was this but homage to the majesty of conscience by 
a Church which they wish to establish as a persecuting 
Church That Church, sir, which the gentleman has 
come here to prove justifies the murdering of herencs, was 
the first to teach a lesson which Protestants have been 
slow to learn, and imitate but which the religion they 
profess should have taught them. But not these examples 
alone ; there are hundreds more. At this day m Bel- 
gium, where Protestants are in a minority of one to twelve, 
the state votes them an equal portion, and wliere ihcir 
clergy are married, a larger portion, and that with the con- 
currence of the Council and the Catholic Bishops. The 



gentleman need not tell me of Catholicism ; I know it 
well ; and what is more, I know Protestantism well ; and 
I know the professions of good will of Protestants do not 
always correspond with their feelings. But I should like 
to know whether or not in Protestantism they find autho- 
rity for persecuting to the knife, not Catholics alone, but 
each other, even after they have proclaimed the right of 
every man to think for himself With good reason sir, do 
I contend for conscience, but they may think a Catholic 
has no ri^ht to have a conscience at all. They may think 
because this system is beautiful in their view, that this 
pretension to conscience on the part of Catholics ought to 
be stifled, as a thing not to be admitted at all. But that 
will not do. Man in this country has a right to the exer- 
cise of conscience, and the man that should raise himself 
up against it will find that he has raised himself up against 
a tremendous opponent. Now, what is it we ask 1 You 
have heard from begiiming to end the arguments on this 
occasion, and though I may not follow the wanderings of 
this discussion through all its minute parts, if I pass over 
any part, be assured it is not from any desire to avoid 
or any inability to refute what has been said against 
us. I may pass over many points, but I will not 
pass over any great principle, and you have, no doubt, 
given so much attention to the subject as to enable 
you, if I should not recapitulate the whole, to decide just- 
ly. It has been urged, that if you give Catholics that 
which they now ask, you will give them benefits which 
will elevate them above others ; but, I contend most sin- 
cerely, and most conscientiously, that we have no such 
idea ; and when you shall have granted the portion we 
claim, if you should be pleased to grant it, I conceive then, 
and not before, shall we be in the enjoyment of the pro- 
tection, and not privilege, to which we are entitled. 
That is my view of the subject ; but, I have been aston- 
ished to perceive the course of argument of the gentlemen 
who oppose our claim, generally speaking. What it is 
they contend for I cannot determine ; but, it seems to be 
the preservation of the existing system. They were 
among the first to disclaim the doctrine that the end justi- 
fies the means, and if in attaining their end they find they 
cannot reach it without injustice, then as conscientious 
and high-minded men, they should have paused by the 
way, and have ascertained whether the means were 
worthy of them and of our glorious country. Yet, sir, 
they have generally overlooked this, and it is no new thing 
to find that they have laboured to promote the benefit of their 
own society at the sacrifice of the rights of others. Sir, 
it is the o-lory of this couirtry that when it is found that a 
wrono- exists, there is a power, an irresistable power, to 
correct the wrong. They have represented us as con- 
tendino- to bring the Catholic Scriptures into the Public 
Schools. This" is not true; but, I shall have occasion 
to refer more particularly to this by and bye. They 
have represented us as enemies to the Protestant Scrip- 
tures " without note and comment," and on this subject 
I know not whether their intention was to make an 
impression on your honorable body, or to elicit a sym- 
pathetic echo elsewhere ; but, whatever their object was, 
they have represented that even here Cathohcs have 
not concealed their enmity to the Scriptures. Now, if 
I had asked this honorable board to exclude the Protes- 
tant Scriptures from the Schools, then there might have 
been some coloring for the current calumny. But I have 
not done so. I say, gentlemen of every denomination, 
keep the scriptures you reverence, but do not force on me 
that which my conscience tells me is wrong. I may be 



37 

tenets which distinguish and separate Christian churches been here with a counter memorial, if they had not cherish- 
of every name are excluded, the purest morals in which all ed a confidence, that, in the hands of this Corporation, the 
agree, are laiight among the lessons of each day, a chapter matter is perfectly sale. Sir, I rt-gavd the subject now -be- 
in the Bible being read at the opening of the school. The fore this honourable body as one of most momentous im- 
petitioners themselves do not allege any defect in thesecu- portance. The principle on which our government is es- 
lar knowledge here taught, nor do they complain that any tablished is of a character to exclude all immediate con- 
religious doctrines are inculcated in these schools. But nexion, on the part of our government, with religious things, 
they insist that their consciences will not allow them to All religion is fully tolerated, fully protected, and then it 
sustain such schools, because no religion is taught in them ; is left alone, and there I hope it will continue to be. It is 
and surely they would consent to none being taught, except not profaned by the contact of civil enactments — we have 
their own religion, and hence it is for this purpose alone, never heard of any " act of uniformity," to set a whole com- 
they have their own schools. It is idle then for the Rt. munity by the ears. Sir, this principle, in this State, is 
Rev. Bishop, to repeat his disclaimer of any intention to guarded with most peculiar jealousy: there is not a minis- 
teach his own religion in his own schools, for in no other ter of religion that can even be appointed as the Superin- 
way can he make out his plea of conscience, nor can he in tendent of a Common School, or be eligible to any civil 
any other ■\\'ay make out a single plea against the present office. Whether it is an innovation on our natural rights, 
excellent system of Public School instruciion. I will not undertake to inquire, but with the existence of 

I do not design to prolong the discussion, but I feel im- such enactments I feel perfectly satisfied. Let it so be. In- 
pelled to say what I have said, for I have observed the ex- terrupt this state of things and whither will it lead? Who 
citement which exists, arising out of the false issue which can foretell to what it may lead? The denomination with 
the Right Rev. gentleman has created, and that hence all which it is my honour and happiness to be connected, was 
the publications on that side of the question in putting forth the first to introduce the Gospel of Salvation to these 
the claim of the Catholics, have treated it as though the op- shores — individuals of this communion laid the founda- 
position to it \vas an opposition to Roman Catholics. Sir, tions of this city, — they embraced a large portion of 
I disclaim it I am not aware that any man in this com- the population of the State, and bear a large part of its 
mUnity opposes it because it is the petition of Roman Ca- burdens; and I know that the feeling of this part of 
tholics, but because it comes from a class of citizens, highly our population is unanimously in favour of leaving matters 
respectable and numerous, I admit, who ask for this money as they are. As a demonstration that they are disinterest- 
to be placed under their own controul. I am sure those ed, the pariicular church which I serve has sustained a 
with whom I am associated do not oppose it merely because charity school more than a century ; it sustains it still from 
it comes from Roman Catholics. We believe the Public the private charity of Christians; and they never received 
School Society confers on us, and on this community, an ad- aid from the State, except for a few years, a few dollars for 
vantage, by the secular instruction of the rising generation, each child, during the operation of the law referred to last 
We see daily, multitudes in these schools of children who evening. 

will soon be introduced on the stage as citizens of this re- Now, personally, in reference to our Roman Catholic 
public, and it is vastly important that they should be friends, my feelings are entirely kind. I have not any 
educated and qualified for the discharge of the im- other feeling. I am not a man of strife. But this matter 
portant duties of freemen. This Public School Sys- would not be quietly submitted to. Were any denomina- 
tem is preparing them for that purpose ; it is attracting the tion, existing among us, to put forth such a claim as is now 
attention of public men of other countries ; these Schools before this Board — were the Presbyterians to do it, we 
are regarded as the nurseries of intelligent freemen, who would not regard it as right Were the Episcopalians, or 
will hereafter have to take the guardianship of the liberties the Methodists, to do it, we should not deem it right. In 
of this country: we are training up thousands of citizens, any case, we should not feel content to contribute to the ge- 
net only for New York, but for the West; — New York neral treasury of the State, if a portion of that treasury were 
contributes much to the population of this nation, and the to be taken hold upon by a particular denomination. — 
power lies with this Board of Aldermen to direct their Whilst the whole spirit of our government, whether gene- 
training so as to make them useful to their country. But ral or State, frowns upon anything that looks like elevating 
there comes a petition, from a body highly respectable, I one section of the Christian community, in preference to 
admit, who ask, " Let us have this money which is collect- another, it would not be kindly reg'arded if the prayer of 
ed for a public purpose and we will apply it to a private this petition were complied with, and a distinction were 
one." I know they disclaim sectarian views, if the money conferred on one and not on others. But while I say that 
is obtained; but if their views are not sectarian they I feel kindness towards our Roman Catholic friends, can- 
can find no valid objection, nor make no improvement to dour would require me to go a little further than many 
the existing system of Public Schools. It is immeasuva- have gone who have addressed you. 

bly important that the present system should be support- With reference to the system of religion by which they 
ed; the gentlemen to whom the Schools are now entrusted are distinguished, I cannot help regarding it as differing . 
have shown themselves amply qualified to discharge their from others; they so regard it. It is exclusive; and they 
duties, and I hope any attempt to destroy the present system claim for it immutability and infallibility. Sir, can Pro- 
will be frowned down, whether it be made by Catholic, or testants, believing as they do believe, consent to be directly 
Protestant, Christian, or Infidel. instrumental in elevating to strength, and in cherishing a 

The Rev. Dr. Knox, of the Dutch Reformed Church, system like this ? I think not I think the citizens of this 
said, — State will say it ought not to be. 

Mr. President, — I should not have risen to claim your Mr. President, for myself I wish our Catholic fellow- 
indulgence for a single moment were it not to say that the citizens to enjoy all the immunities that are enjoyed by any 
christian denomination with which I am connected, in their others ; but with that I wish them to rest content, I have 
united sentiment are adverse to the prayer of the memorial sought carefully, and according to my best ability, during 
ROW before you ; and that they would, unquestionably, have this discussion and previously, to ascertain what is the pre- 



38 

eise ground of their dissatisfaction, and I confess 1 am not Sir, — I avail myself of the liberty which your resolution 
instructed j'et. Weare told that in these Common Schools gives ms, to make one or two remarks. It mig'ht be in- 
ren-'ioii is not taught ; and in juxtaposition we are told tnat ferrad by somi, froar ths position we occupy here, that we 
the Bible is read. Now, with reg-ard to the administration appear here as a sect to vindicate our sectarian principles 
of those schools, we have had abundant testimony both and rights. Now if such an impression should have e.x- 
here and elsewhere, that they are conducted with extreme isted I wish to correct it. We appear here simply, with 
— with the'svery utmost care. Is disobedience to parents the rest of oar fellow-citizens, for the purpose of opposing 
taught there? Are they taught to falsify the truth? or to what we conceive to be an unjust application. We have 
do a wrong thing? On the contrar)% are they not in- nothing to ask for. We do not ask for a portion of the 
structed in the common fundamental principles of morals, public money to enable us to educate our children. The 
while they are taught to read and write and to discharge time was when the Methodist Episcopal Church had 
the duty of citizens when they arrive at maturity? The Bi- a flourishing Charity School which they supported for 
ble is read, as it ought to be ; and occasionally passages upwards of forty years without a cent from the public 
have been found in tho books, admitted into the libraries, distribute a portion in the city of New-York amono- the 
which are oflensive to the feelings of Catholics. These fund; but when the legislature of the State concluded to 
have been expurgated as soon as detected in every instance charity schools, we received our proportion, and at the first, 
that I am aware of But is this a sufficient reason for so when a motion was made to take it out of the hands of 
great a change ? Can you, or any gentleman who is in charity schools and give it to the Public Schools we did re- 
the habit of reading, for a single week or day, be perfectly monstrate with others. But we are very glad to say that 
sure that even when reading works of a select kind you siuce'we have seen the system in operation and viewed its 
shall not find something that may not be consonant with blessed effects on the minds of our children and the com- 
your feelings? But let it be overlooked and passed by. Do munity we joyfully acquiesce in the decision of the Com- 
these schools interfere with our religious instruction of our mo^ Council on that subject. There is one objection 
children? Do they take them away from the parent, or ^^^^^ to this system which somewhat surprised me. It 
the pastor, or from the Sabbath School? Are they con- ,^^3 stated, if I did not misunderstand it, that bv taking 
ducted by individuals of the same faith ? I believe not. I these children and sending them to these schools'they are 
am not able to find a just cause of complamt. taken out of the hands of their parents and delivered" over 

I have but a single remark more, for I have observed to the hands of the public officer of the State. Wliy, Sir, 
tie great patience, with which this honourable Council ^^^^ jg extraordinary. Suppose our brethren of the 

has sat to hear the remarlcs of gentlemen both yesterday Roman Catholic Church established their schools, for they 
and to day, and I am unwillmg to occupy more than have them, I suppose, do they not take their children, 
another moment of their time on a single point. The gen- j^,.; ^^^^^^ ^^ {.,.0^ thg- hands of their parents ? 

t eman who first addressed you yesterday afternoon, ^^^ ^l ^^^ ^^^ tj^^ ^■^^ being taken out of the domes- 
throughout the vvholeof his exceedingly able and eloquent ^-^ ^-^^^ ^^j delivered over to the hands of the public 
address, laboured this one point, to endeavour to produce ^^^^^^^ ., ^„j j^g^ ^^^ ^ f^tl^„ a„j mother, when 

an mipression on the minds of this Common Council that a (^ey resign their children to a school, an academy, or a 
false issue had been started-that they do not want the pub- college, deliver them out of their hands for the time 




il theyare Willing to pledge themselves to give no religious ^„j thsy are only absent from us about six hours, and 

jrl"?!'?".!." il".^!', :T^ !!l!Vir,^^^\°.^!"rL!!'.!.''",!!S /f!"!" ^^e rest of the time they are with us How, then, pray 

is ant 

imagine is this, that upon the wliole there is an influence ^YiV Crn7cTCre'"told'u7''thkt''rhe°^nsfVuctTo7"In These 
exerted by a contact with the children in these schools, ^^j^ools tended to infidelity. He disclaimed any inten- 
adverse to feelings of leverence for Catholic peculiarities, (j^^ ^^ ^^arge this upon the principles of the managers 
That must be it. Well, now is it so ? Sir my chddren ^f jhat institution, but he said the system itself tended 
are exposed by mingling with the community, to things to infidelity. Now, sir, what is the grea* bulwark against 
which are adverse to their feelmgs-if you chose, their infidelity ? Is it not the Bible, sir? What are «// the 
prejudices ; they may at the same time meet with things commentaries, what are all the dissertations that wera 
which reflect on their family, and on their associations— g^g^ written, even the most learned, in comparison with 
their religious associations and their other associations jhe Bible ? Are we to suppose that any human teaching 
too,— does that weaken their attachment to those associa^ ;„ the Roman Catholic schools will be paramount to the 
tions ? No It strengthens them. They at once say those ^i^le in checking the overflowings of Infidelity 1 Would 
persons don t think as I do, they don't feel as I do. We £ trust myself or my denomination in preference to the 
may be taunted about our pastors or our faith ; does that gj^ig 7 ^^^ g■^^ Ti,g gibig contains its own evidence 
lesson our attachment to them? I think not. We tliink of j^^ ^wn truth ; it reflects its own light, unobscured 
we are right and they are wrong, and we let it pass. Sir ^y the commentaries of feeble man ; and are we to be 
I repeat, though I am not delegated to attend here to tell told that the Holy Scriptures without note and comment 
It, that these sentiments pervade the denomination which ^^iii jgad to Infidelity 1 If I mistake not, one of the Trus- 
I represent, and with the expression of that fact I will re- tees told us that the Holy Scriptures were read every 
tire, and not trouble the board any longer. day, and that the children were taught that God made 

The Rev. Dr. Bangs, of the Methodist Episcopal them, and that he saw their thoughts, words, and actions, 
Church, said — and these we know are the first principles of revealed 



41 

wrong, as you may be ; and as you exercise your judg- that if this system is wrong it ought to be overturned en- 
ment be pleased to allow the same privilege to a fellow tirely. That 1 leave to the judgment of those with whom 
being who must appear before our common God and an- the confidence of the people has deposited the authority 
swer for the exercise of it. I wish to do nothing like He says that the people have a right to interfere and to 
what IS charged upon me— that is not the purpose for give to the children of the State an" intellectual education, 
which we petition this honorable board in the name of the that this must be carried out in some form or other, and' 
community to which I belong : I appear here for other that this system is as little objectionable as any that could 
objects, and if our petition be granted our Schools maybe be presented. That may be— I do not dispute the possi" 
placed under the supervision of the public authorities, or bihty of it, because it is unimportant ; but if he did mea; 
even of commissioners to be appointed by the Public to contend that that system which has been once sanctio« 
School Society; they may be put under the same super- ed must continue to be sanctioned, although its sanction 
vision as the existing Schools to see that none of those was merely by the tacit consent of the different denomi- 
phantoms, nor any grounds for those suspicions which nations, and although it should become violative of the reli- 
are as uncharitable as unfounded, can have existence in gious rights of any, then he goes beyond the limits which 
reality. There isthen but one simple question — will you even the constitution of the land have made sacred. I have 
compel us to pay a tax from which we can receive no been represented as endeavoring to create excitement on this 
benefit, and to frequent schools which injure and destroy subject. To that I shall refer immediately; but I may 
our religious rights in the minds of our children, and of here refer to my objection to the existing system, on the 
which in our consciences we cannot approve ? That is ground that it has a tendency to Infidelity, and may ob- 
the simple question. Or, will you appoint some other sys- serve that I know clergymen of other denominations who 
tem, or will you leave the children of our denomination to are also opposed to it on the ground of its Infidel tenden- 
grow up in that stateofignorance which the School Society cy. There are many who have the conviction that it 
has expressed its desire to save them from. Or shall the tends to Infidelity, and who know that the preventive re- 
constable be employed, as one rev. gentleman seems to re- ferred to is not equal to stem the tendency to Infidelity 
commend (Dr. Bangs) or some public officer to catch them which does exist. 

and ,,send them to school, for from this moment in conse- The first gentleman who spoke, and he spoke with a 
quence of the language used, and the insulting passages frankness and sincerity for which I give him credit, con- 
which those books contain. Catholic parents will not send tended — and when I answer his objection I wish to be 
their children there, and any attempts to enforce attendance understood as speaking to all that took up that objection — 
would meet with vigorous resistence from them. I have and it was urged more or less by the whole — that it was 
now presented what is in reality the simple issue ; it is inconsistent to charge upon the system a tendency to in- 
no matter whether we believe right or not, for neither the fidelity, and then a teaching of religion and that this teach- 
Catholic nor the Protestant religion is on trial here ; and ing was anti-catholic. Now this would be inconsistent 
I repeat, therefore, that the gentleman who represents the under some circumstances ; but the gentleman left out 
Methodist Church has taken so much pains to distil the grounds on which that charge was made, and it will be 
through the minds of this meeting, a mass of prejudice proper therefore that I should state those grounds. In 
which it will take several hours, but at the same time very the document which emanated from the Board of Assis- 
little beside, for me to refute and scatter to the winds. I tants last spring, they say, that the smallest particle of re- 
shall perhaps not dwell long on that part, because I judge ligion is a disqualification, and that " Religious instruction 
it is irrelevant to the case in hand, but still I shall feel is no part of a common school education?' Now was it 
authorized to trespass on the patience of the meeting a the intention of your honourable body to exclude all reli- 
short time, though but a short time to remove the im- gion 1 Was it the intention of the State Legislature ? 
proper prejudice which may have been created. Did any public authority require that the public school 

Now I start again with a statement of the question as I education should be winnowed as corn on a barn floor, 
did the other day, and notwithstanding all the learning, and all religion driven out by the winds of heaven as chaff 
theological, legal, medical, and I know not what beside, not worthy to be preserved ? Was there such authority 1 
which has been employed to oppose our position, and al- Who made such a decision ? And yet that very decision, 
though I have had to meet so many able gentlemen who I ask you, if we are not authorized to interpret as proof of 
have been accustomed to public speaking, I rise in the the charge, that the system has a tendency to infidelity 1 
proud consciousness that not a solitary principle laid For, banish religion, and infidehty alone remains. And 
down by me, or laid down in that petition has been re on the other hand, we find the gentlemen of the Public 
futed. I see the question stand precisely where it did School Society themselves repeatedly stating that [they 
before the gentlemen began to speak, and I see the same inculcate religion, and give religious impressions ; and I 
false issue ; and I challenge any gentleman to say that say it does them credit, for as far as they can they ought 
it is not a false issue — persevered in to this very hour, so to teach religion. It would be better if they did for those 
that our argument has not been moved one iota ; there who are satisfied with their relgious teaching. This ex- 
must therefore be something powerful in our plain, unso- planation will set us right in the minds of your honourable 
phisticated, simple, statement, when all the reasoning body. It is first said, no religion is taught, and then it is 
brought against it leaves it just where it was before. admitted that religion is inculcated ; and next our petition 

I shall now take the gentlemen in order, and follow is opposed because it is alleged that if our prayer be 
them according to the notes which I have taken and my granted religion will be taught. What weight then is the 
recollection of their arguments, and I may possibly have objection of the Public School Society entitled to if this 
some difficulty in avoiding a discursive reply. The first be the fact ? And where is our inconsistency ? If there 
gentleman (Mr. Sedgwick) who spoke, took up this view, is a dilemma to whom are we indebted for it but to the 
6 



42 



Report of tie Board of Assistants on the one hand, and to the Public School Society admit that religion is inculcated 

the testimony of the Public School Society on the other 1 and the legal Gentleman, their representive, does not dis- 

Let us not then be charged with inconsistency. claim it so far as it forms the ground work of a good moral 

Now sir I contend there is infidelity taught. 1 do not character, it may be taken as admitted. And now it they 

mean in its' gross form ; but I have found principles of infe- teach religion let us know what it is to be. Let them not 

riority in the books-and one that would pass current as a very delegate to the teachers, some of whom may teach one 

amiablebook— a religious lesson which I would not sufler a religion, some another, the authority or permission to 

child to read, over whom I had any influence. The lesson make " religious impressions," to give " religious mstruc- 

represents a father and his son going about on Sunday lion," to give a •' right direction to the mmd of youth, and 

morning to the different churches, the little boy asking all the other phrases which we find in their documents. 

questions as they pass along from one to the other ; at last Now on the subject of religion and morals, would they teach 

the boy said to his father— I may not quote the words but morals without religion, which I conceive will be found 

I shall be found xioht in substance— " What is the reason as visionary as caslle building in the air. Mr. Ketchum 

there are so many different sects? Why do not all people says they are taught not lo lie, but without rehgion 

agree to go to the same place, and to worship God in the he furnishes no motive for not lying. If a man tells 

same way 1" And why should it not be so, replied the me not to lie, when it is my interest to he, I as a rational 

father. Why should they agree? Do not people being want a motive for telling the truth. My love of 

differ in other things ? Do they not differ in their tasle gain tells me if I lie and lie successfully it will add to my 

and their dress— some like their coats cut one way and fortune ; and if I am told to abstain from lying at the risk 

some another — and do they not differ in their appetites of my fortune, let me have a reason. But if I am told 

and food ' and in the hours they keep and in their diver- there is God to whom 1 am accountable, that is a motive, 

sion ?" Now I ask if there is no infidelity in that ? 1 but then, it is a teaching of religion. Yes sir, when I am 

ask if it is a proper lesson to teach children that as they told there is a God I am taught religion, and therefoi,, I 

Lave a right to form their own tastes for dress and food, am astonished that the Report which has gone forth fiom 

they have the right to judge for themselves in matters of the other Board should declare that the smallest teaching of 

religion, for, with deference to the Public School Society, religion vitiates the claim. You mayas well think to build 

children are too young to have such principles instilled an edifice without a foundation as to pretend to produce 

into them. Let "them grow up before they are left to ex- moral effects without religious belief. 

ercise their judgment in such weighty matters — at least do There may not be the details of religion but there must 

not teach Catholic children such a lesson at so early an ^g [^g pnnciple to a certain extent, otherwise you cannot 

age ; and in all I have said, I desire to be understood as j^y the foundation of good morals for men. Now sir, I 

abstaining most carefully from prescribing any rule or ^ju ghow you that Mr. Stephen Girard of Philadelphia, 

method, or book, for any denomination with which I am ^vho had no religious belief whatever, in his Will by which 

not connected. But for Catholic children, I speak, and 1 ^e bequeathed large sums of money for the purpose of 

say, it is too early for them to judge for themselves. And procuring great and material benefits to society ; but which 

is this all ? No sir ; one other passage, and for that there ^^s been looked upon by many Christians of every denom- 

may perhaps be something to be said as to its defence be- ination in Philadelphia rather as a curse than a blessing, — 

cause it is from the pen of an eminent Protestant Divine, even he speaks of morality without religion nearly as the 

the Bishop of London. I presume the Bishop of London Public School Society does — He saj^s : 

when he wrote that passage must have been writing on .. g^^^^^j j ^^. .^ ^^^ ^^ i^3 ,^^, „„ ecclesiastic, 

some subject connected with Infidelity-he must have j^i^^i^^^ ^, ^J.^^, ^f ^, 4ct whatsoever, shall ever 

been writmg agamst Infidelity, and mdulgmg in a lange ^^^^ ^^ J^^^^^^ ^^^^.^^ ^^ whatsoever in the said 

of argument which might be proper for such a sub- ^^^^^y ^^^^ ^^^ ^^.^^ ^^ ^^^.^,^^ j.^^ 

ject, but out of place in the hands of common school cM- . ^ y^ r^^.^ ^^^^ ^_^^.^^^ 

dren. What was that passage ? Why it is one uh. h y P P ^^ ^^^ ^^.^ ^^^^^ ^^ ^ 

represents the Divme Redeemer as a ma,i of respectahle P^^ ^^^^^-^^-^^^^ /^ „^t ^^^,^^ t„ ,^,, any reflection upon 

talents. i , „(• c.„ot, o any sect or person whatsoever ; but as there is such a 

Mr. Ketchum rose, and intimated his doubt of such a J^^.^^^^ J^^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^ ^ ^.^^^^^.^^ ^^ ^^.^.^^ ^^^^^^^^ 

passage being m the books. ,„,.„,^i, In them, I desire to keep the tender minds of the orphans, who 
The Right Re^^ Prelate continued I have lead it in ^^^ ^^ ^^^.^^^ ^AvJ^^ge from this bequest, free from the 
their books, but the tmstees have recalled thern, I hope excitement which clashmg doctrmes and sectarian con- 
not for the purpose of depriving me of the oppoitunity ^^^ ^^.^ ^^ ^^ ^yoAuce. My desire is, that all 
of quoting the page Such a lesson ,s now to be ^^e instructors and teachers in the college shall take pains 
found m one of the books which represents the Divine ^^ .^^^^.^ .^^^^ ^^^ ^^.^^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^^^ ^^^ p^.j„^j. 
Redeemer as showmg uncommon qmckness of pene- i^^ of morality, so that, on their entrance into active life, 
tration, and sagacity I ask whether such a lesson ,s fw may, from inclination and habit, evince benevolence 
a proper one for children, and whether such is the mstruc- t^/^^g^their fellow creatures, and a love of truth, sobrie- 
tion to be given to them of the Redeemer of the word? ^^ ^^^^ ^^^^ ^. ^^^^^ ^.^ij. 
The gentleman who first spoke, said i was not m reality ^^ J^^^.^ ^^^-^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^le them to 
religion that was taught but mere morality that was mcul- " . r » 

cated, — the propriety of telling the truth and of fulfilling P'^ ^^' ^ 

all moral duties. If this be true it is still strange that the That, sir, is the policy of Mr. Girard, who had no belief 

School Society should prefer the word "religious." He that was known to others. That was the policy of a 

did not deny that it was a kind of religion, and that the man who, so far as was known, was as much a sceptic as 

precepts of the Decalogue were inculcated, and while Voltaire or Rousseau. He, by his bounty of two millions 



of dollars to the city of Philadelphia, provided that poor not, however. He passed that over"; and whilst I recoo-- 
orphans should be brought up to respect infidelity. He nize and respect the " human face divine," because God 
did not say a word against religion, but he took care to made it to look upward, I may here observe that it has 
stand by, not personally, but by his executors, in his will, no power to frighten me, even if it would be terrible • and 
to prevent its precepts being inculcated in the minds of therefore I was not at all disturbed by the hard looks 
those who are the dependents on his bounty. They were which he gave me. The gentleman will pardon me I 
to have the purest principles of morals instilled into their hope, in this, for it is natural enough, after what has been 
minds ; but the attempt is vain when religion is not placed said — though I know it was said in good humour to claim 
as the foundation of morals. the privilege to retort. 

" He, like the Public School Society, stands by to see that Well, sir, this was not all, but he told us something 
the potter shall give no form to the vase, till the clay about going to the stake. He was sure, if any of the pub-- 
grows stiff and hardened. Then it will be too late. lie money was voted to the denomination of a reverend 
The gentleman also made objections to our schools, gentleman whose name t will not mention, the Catholics 
because, he said, they were in our churches. The fact would go to the stake. Now, sir, we have no intention to 
is, we were obliged to provide them where we could, and do so. We know the public money does go to the sup- 
our means would permit ; and there are some of them in the port of religion ; it goes to the support of chaplaincies 
basement of our churches. And he conceived it impossible theological seminaries, universities, and chaplains of in- 
to keep them from sectarian influence, because the children stitutions whose appointments are permanent ■ and be it 
would be within hearing of the chant of Divine service ; as remembered, that one of the first lectures delivered in 
though sectarianism depended on geographical distances one institution, the University of this city, which was aided 
from church. But this could not have been a valid ob- from the public funds, was on the anti-republican tendency 
jection, because the Public School Society has had not of Popery. And yet we did not go to the Stake for that • 
only schools under churches, but in the Session Rooms and why ? Because, though our portion of taxation min- 
of churches. gles with the rest, we have no objections to the use of it 
I shall refer now to the learned gentleman who follow- which the law prescribes, so long as no inalienable rights 
ed him (Mr. Ketchum), and I can only say that this gen- of our own are involved in the sacrifice, 
tleraan, with a great deal of experience in this particular But, again, he said, if any of the money was appronri- 
question, really seems to me to confirm all I say on the ated to the Catholic religion, Protestants would so to the 
ground we have taken. I know he lectured me pretty stake. I will not say whether Protestants are so exclu- 
roundly on the subject of attending the meetings held sive ; while we submit to taxation for protestant purposes 
under St. James' church. I know he did more for me without going to the stake, whether, if we participate' 
than the Pope ; the Pope " mitred" me but once, but he they will go to the stake, is not for me to say. 
did so three or four times during the course of his address. Then he came to the Protestant Bible " without note 
He read me a homily on the duties of station ; and he so or comment ;" and " it was hard for him to part with that 
far forgot his country and her principles, as to call it a translated Bible." He stood by it, and repeated that " it 
" descent" on my part, when I mingled in a popular meet- was hard to give up the Bible," just as if I had said one 
ing of freemen. But it was no descent; and I hope the word against it; and as if I was about to bring the Pope 
time will never come when it will be deemed a descent to banish it out of the Protestant world, or wished to de- 
fer a man in office to mingle with his fellow-citizens when prive any man who venerates it of any use he may think 
convened for legitimate and honorable purposes. proper to make of it. And there, ao-ain he looked so 
But from his speech it would appear, that his experi- much as if he were in earnest, that, at one time I thouo-ht 
ence has been obtained by the discharge of the duty of he was actually about to rush to the " stake." But there 
standing advocate of denial ; and yet, with all his experi- v/as no stake there to go to, except that which he holds 
ence and opportunities of research, his inability to over- in the exchequer of the Public School Society. It is a 
turn our grounds confirms me in the conviction that they most comfortable way of going to martyrdom, 
are not to be removed, even by the aid of splendid talents ; Sir, the gentleman taunted me for having attended the 
for that speech, like most others, went on the false issue public meetings of Catholics on this subject, and he im- 
that we want privileges. But we want no privilege, puted the prejudice which exists against the Public School 
That speech, like the speech from the Throne, might system to the observations I have made as thouo-h it were 
have been the speech of years past, and might have been of my creation. In answer to that I may state °what has 
stereotyped; for its only novelty, which proved to me been the fact for years, that Catholics have been struo-- 
that it was not all the work of antiquity, was the part gling to have schools, and to the extent of their means vve 
which appertained to myself. And not only that, but I have them ; and what is the reason ? Do you suppose 
have to say, that when I came into this hall — and it is the that we should impose additional burdens upon ourselves 
first time I ever stood in an assembly of this description if we were satisfied with those public schools ? Do you 
— I felt that I was thrown on the hospitality of the profes- suppose we should have paid for our bread a second time 
sional gentlemen ; and I think if I and that gentleman if that which these schools offered had not, in our opinion' 
could have exchanged places, I should not have looked so been turned to a stone ? No, the exiatence of our own 
hard at him as he did at me. In fact, throughout that schools proves that I have not excited the prejudice ■ but 
speech, he, with peculiar emphasis, and a manner Which still it is at all times my duty to warn my people ag'ains 
he may, perhaps, have acquired in his practice in courts that which is destructive or violative to the religion they pro- 
of law, fixed upon me a steady gaze — and he has no or- fess ; and if they abandon their religion they are free • but 

dinary countenance — and addressed me so solemnly, that so long as they are attached to our religion, it is my duty as 
I really expected every moment he would forget himself, their pastor, as the faithful guardian of their principles and 
and say " The prisoner at the bar." (Laughter.) He did morals, to warn them when there is danger of imbibing poi- 



..nn instead of wholesome food. That is the reason ; and we spread before thezr children lessons on the burning of 

Tarn sorry that he has not found a motive less unworthy Servetus by (^alv.n, a>id on the hangings of members of 

of n^e ha/t fat he has been pleased to assign. he Society of F nends by those who held Calvin's doc- 

Then-and I may as well take up the question now as trines ? I should listen to their appeal ,„ such a case with 

1 wrP— it has been said that it is conceived to be an feelings far different from those manifested by them in 

inconsistency in our argument, that we object to the Pub- regardto others But I would do more, in order that those 

mconsisie > ^^^P^.^^ .^ ^^ ,^ .^ ^^^^^^ ^^^ ygt_ ^ little vagrants ;of whom the gentleman speaks might come 

be schools which we%ropose to establish, or rather, into school. Their parents themselves having by perse- 

which we have estabhshed, but for which we now plead, cution been deprived, in many instances, of an education, 

we profess to teach no sectarianism; and the question do not fuly appreciate its advantages, and if you seek to 

TrLs" if vou are opposed to religion in these schools enforce the attendance of neir children, they will resist; 

Wnse it IS sectarianism, how can you teach religion in if you attempt to coerce them you will not succeed. But 

vmir schools and yet your schools not be sectarian?" if you put them in a way to be admitted without being 

^Tsistt poshion^n which they place us; and m an- dragged by force to the school or without destroying 

/sw« ihave to state, that, in the first place, we do not in- heir religious principles when hey enter, (which you 

teTd to teach relic on. We shall be willing that they have no right to do,) then you will prepare good citizens, 

shall be ikced imd'er the same inspection that the PuWic educated to the extentthat will maUe them useful to heir 

Srhools are now ■ and if it shotdd be found that religion country. 1 hen their parents haying confidence in their 

is tansht we will be willing that you shall cut them off. pastors, will send their children to schools approved of 

You shall be the judges. You may see that the law is bythem-and the children themse yes may attendschools 

complied with, and if we violate it, let us be deprived of where they need not be ashamed of their creed, and where 

^he benefiTs for which the conditions were prescribed, their companions will not call theni "Papists," and tell 

ButthTre is neutral ground on which our children may them that ignorance and vice are the accompaniments of 

learn to read and cipher. If they read, it must be some- ^heir religion. That will be the result, and 1 conceive ,t 

aS^r^: jSinsl^^S^J^^e^^^^bliST's^tJ ^ 'if ^^ bLen said about the distinction between 
shape the studies, as to loathe Catholicism, without morality and religion, and abou those certain broad prin- 
learnin. any otLr rdigion. And this could be produced, ciples on which it is thought all can agree. And yet our 

K£rcMrnX:ga°,^Xirt:nrel^^^^ 

are not taught any othe?. Suppose the Presbyterians, or of those who are not o the Chiistmr. religion, but are 

any otto denomination, were ih the minority, and Catho- commonly called Infidels. An attempt has been made 

lies were numerically what Protestants are now, and to draw a distinction between morality and religion. I 

therefore were able to decide what lessons their children have already said, and there is not a gentleman here who 

sSd read in these schools, I ask you if the gemleman will pretend to deny ■t,tbat morality must reston religion for 

Sdnot conceive he had reasonable objections, if they Us basis I refer you, and it is not an ordinary a.ihonty to 

had forced upon them a system of education which teaches a man who passed througn lie uiih the most beautifiiicha- 

that their denomination, past, present, and to come, was acter and tlie most blam<de>s reputalion, thai ever fell to 

fleceitful' Now take up these books, which teach all the lot of a public man— one who was rlistingui.hed almost 

that is infamous in our history ; which teach our children above all other men; one, of whom it would bo profane to 

about the " execution of Cranmer," the burning of Huss, say that he was inspired, yet, of whom history has not 

and " the character of Lnther." If such a practice were handed down one useless action, or one single idle word, 

reversed what would he do? a man who teft to his country an inheritance ofthe bnght- 

Now 'in our schools, I would teach them— I would est example, and the fairest name that ever soldier or 

aive our children lessons for exercise in reading, that statesman bequeathed to a nation— that man was George 

should teach them that when the young tree of American Washington. Hear what he says in his Frewill Ao- 

liberty was planted, it was watered with Catholic blood, dress, on the attempt now being made to preserve morality 

and that therefore we have as much right to every thing whilst religion is discarded from the public schools. 

■ *k; „.,.„,tr,, o= ntlnp.'=: T =lioiild teach them " Of all the dispositions and haWts which lead to political pros- 
common in thiscomitryasotlieis ^ ;'^°"''' '^'^?.'^ "'^"' parity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain 
that Catholic Bishops and Catholic Baions at Kunney- ^^^fd'that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to 
mede wruno- the charter of our liberties — the grand parent gu^ygft these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props 
of all known liberty in the world — from the hands of a of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally 
T ^v,„„l,l ic^nh tVipm where to find the brio-ht with the pious man, ought to respect and fo cherish them. A vol- 
tyrant. I should teach them ^Mieie ;° ""° ;"; ,°"«"' ume could not trace all their connexions with private and public fe- 
spots no our historv, tfiougti the gentleman w no re- ^.^.^^^ Let it be simply asked, where is the security for property, 
presents the Methodists knew not where they were for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligations desert 
to be found This I would do, and should I violate the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in courts of 
tV,P Ww ? If instead of the burning of Huss, I gave them justice ? And let us with caution indulge the Etipposition, that mo- 
thelaw.' ii.iiiMeduui luc 7 , r,,.,.„,l „p C^rrnll rality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be con- 
a chapter on the character of tliarles t airoll or t arroil- ^ede'dto the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar stnic- 
ton, as a reading lesson, would that be teaching them or ^^^^^ reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national 
Pur'o-alorv and the doctrine of Transubstantiation. 1 morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. 

Rnt if mir circumstances were reversed, so that Cath- " 'Tis substantially true, that virtue or morality is a necessary 

Jiut It our circumsiances. « eie ,„„„,',„„. Prp=hv spring of popular government. The rule indeed extends with more 

olics controlled the public schools, would not Fresby- „^ le^^ fo/^e to eviry species of free government. Who that is a 

terians have a right to complain ? — and should not we be ^ sincere friend to it can look with indifference upon attempts to 

tyrants while we refused to listen to their complaints, if shake the foundation ofthe fabric?" 



i5 

Such is the warning, the solemn warning of this great Yes, in Scotland, in all her confessions of faith— in Eng- 
man. If you take away religion, on what foundation do land, and 1 appeal to her penal laws against Catholics 
you propose to rear the structure of morality ? No — and those acts by which the Puritans and Dissenters 
they stand to each other in the relation of parent and off- were pursued, men who had the misfortune like 
spring, or rather they are kindred principles from the same ourselves, to have a conscience, were driven out 
divine source, and what God has joined together, let no and all was done on the authority of the Bible with- 
man put asunder. • out note or comment, and for the public o-ood and the 

Now, with regard to all said by me against the Pro- good of the Church. I do not say that the Bible sanc- 
testant Bible, I appeal to this honorable body whether tioned persecution, but I deny that the absence of notes is 
I ever said one word hostile to that Bible ; and yet, from an adequate preventive 1 refer to history. And al- 
the address of the gentlemen on the other side, men abroad most to this day, though the Bible has been translated 
who should read their speeches, would be led to believe three hundred years, even in liberal governments the 
that I not only entertained, but that I had uttered senti- iron heel of persecution has been placed on the dearest 
raents of hostility to that work. And it is ever thus that rights nf Catholics. The gentleman to whom 1 allude 
our principles and our feelings are misrepresented, while said, no doubt, what he knew would be popular out of 
gentlemen profess to be conscious of entertaining no pre- doors, for he seems, with others, to imagine that the world 
judice against us as Catholics. One gentleman, however, began at the period of the Reformation. He seems to think 
avowed his hostility to us on this ground, and for his can- that every thing great originated at that period. But does 
dor I tender my acknowledgment. The whole effort of he not know that eight hundred editions of the Bible had 
some of the gentlemen, indeed of all who have spoken on been printed before the Reformation 1 And does he not 
the subject, has been to show that the system must be know that two hundred editions had been circulated in the 
made so broad and liberal that all can agree in it — but I common tongue, in the common language of the country 1 
think they contend for too much when they wish so to And has he yet to learn tha the first prohibition to 
shape religion and balance it on its pedestal as to make it read the Bible, came not from a Catholic, but from 
suit every body and every sect ; for if Infidels are to be a Protestant — from Protestant Henry VIII., of " glori- 
suited, and it is rnade to reconcile them to the system, I ous memory !" He was the first to issue a prohibition 
want to know whether Catholics, or any other class, are and it was not till Catholics saw the evil — not of the Bi- 
not entitled to the right to have it made to suit them. — ble, but the bad uses men were making of the Bible that 
And if every body is to be made satisfied, why is it that they placed its perusal under certain restrictions and 
Catholics and others are discontented and excluded ? Is cautioned their people against hastily judgino- of it for 
it not manifest that what they profess to accomplish is themselves. All had been united and harmonious but 
beyond their reach i Now the infidels have found able by the use, or abuse, which men made of the Bible all 
advocates in the Rev. gentlemen who have spoken in the became doubt and speculation, and the positive revelation 
course of this discussion — I mean the interests of Infidel- of Christ was shaken or destroyed. They saw this Bi- 
ity — and why js it then, that the gentlemen who plead ble, and what then ? But, while these school o-entle- 
for that side of the question, enter their protest against men contend that it is a shield against Infidelity and that 
ours >. I should like to know why there is this inconsis- all sects here agree, how is it out of the schools ? Why 
tency. If the rule is to be general, why is it not general ? no sects agree upon it. How is it that the Bible which 
I pass now to the reasoning of one learned gentleman who is given by the inspiration of God, the God of truth is 
spoke yesterday, and defended the Protestant Bible. Now made use of in this city even, to prove a Trinity and to 
this was unnecessary in that gentleman — it was in him a disprove a Trinity? How is it that Trinitarians quote it 
work of supererogation to vindicate the Protestant Scrip- to prove their doctrines, and Unitarians quote it toestab- 
tures — it was useless to defend a point which had not lish the opposite doctrines ? How is it that whilst one 
been attacked. It was time lost ; and yet, perhaps, not says from the Bible, that God the Father is God alone 
altogether lost, for in some respects it may have been and that Christ is not equal to him, for he says, " The 
profitable enough. In entering on its defence, he said it Father is greater than /," another argues from the same 
was the instrument of human liberty throughout the world Bible that the Father and Son are equal^because Christ says 
—wherever it was, there was light and liberty; and ^'■The Father and I are one?" And another comes with 
where it was not, there was bondage and darkness ; and the Bible in hi^^ hand, and says, I believe, and I can prove 
he brought it round so that he almost asserts that our it from this Bible that Christ aione is the Almin-hty God, 
Declaration of Independence had been copied from the and the Father and the Spirit are only attributes of the 
Bible. No doubt the just and righteous principles on same person ! Why, this Bible which they say is the 
which that Declaration has its foundation have their foundation of all truth, and they say well when it is tru- 
sanction in the Bible, but I deny their immediate con- ly under.-tood, a grace which God can vouchsafe and 
nection, and on historical grounds, for it is known that no doubt, he does to many, this Bible is harmonious in 

its author looked upon St. Paul as an imposter ; conse- its every doctrine. But that is not the point the point 

quently their connection is not historically true. But is the uses we see men make of it, and this is the sum 
while the gentleman referred to our notes, ffeut which of our reason that we wish our children not to be tauo-ht 
we disown and repudiate,) as containing principles of per- in the manner in which Protestant children are tauo-ht 
secution — how was it that after the Protestant Bible, in reference to the Bible. 

" without note and comment," came into use, every de- And then, again, if you teach that there is a hell, accord- 
nomination of Protestants in the whole tuor/rf that had the ing to the Bible, others will contend that the Scriptures 
misfortune, for it must have been a misfortune, to be teach no such doctrine, and so I micrht pass on to other 
yoked to civil power, wielded the sword of persecution, points to show you whilst they thus contend for the Bible 
and derived their authority for so doing from the j«afcc(/(«^i. as the guide to truth, there is this disao-reement amono- 



46 

them at least in this country, where human rights and of this honorable body to the remarks of the Rev. gentle- 
liberties are understood, as allowing every man to judge mm who spoke in relation to the Rhemish Testament. I 
for himself. Is there not then danger— is there no ground did use, sir, yesterday, an expression which I used with 
to apprehend that when our children read this Bible and reluctance, but when we were charged before this honor- 
find that all these different sects father all their contra- able body— when the Rev. gentleman who represents a 
dictions on the Bible as their authority, they will derive numerous denomination, charged us with teaching the 
their first notions of Infidelity from these circumstances? lawfulness of murdering heretics, that expression came 
But there is another o-round on which it is manifest we on me as a thunderbolt ; because I thought that truth 
cannot allow our children to be taught by them. Whilst should proceed from the lips of age and a man of character, 
we o-rant them the right to take, if they please, the Pro- And, sir, I knew that position was not true, and that it 
testant Bible as the rule of their faith, and the individual was an easy matter to assert a thing, but n*.t so easy to 
rit^ht to judge of the Bible— and this great principle they disprove it. I might talie advantage of circumstances to 
proclaim as^'the peculiar, and distinctive, and most glori- charge a man with things that it would take weeks to 
ous trait in their religious character and history — and let disprove, and therefore I thought it necessary to nail that 
them boast of it, there is no difficulty on the subject— slanderous statement to the counter before it could have 
they interpret the Bible by the standard of reason, and its designed influence here or elsewhere. That gentle- 
therefore as there is no given standard of reason — as man began with great humility, and with professions of 
one has more and another less, they scarcely ever arrive being devoid of prejudice, and then he said that those 
at the same result, while the Bible, the eternal Word of meetings to which he referred, and which he called " pub- 
God, remains the same. But this is not a Catholic prin- lie gatherings," had caused him to feel greatly alarmed 
ciple. Catholics do not believe that God has vouchsafed about this question, as if the stability of your Republic 
the promise of the Holy Spirit to every individual, but was endangered, provided Catholic children received the 
that He has given His Spirit to teach the Church collec- benefits of a common school education ! He said I had 
tively, and to guide the Church, and therefore we do not applied certain remarks to the creed of the Society of 
receive as the Bible except what the Church guarantees. Friends, and, though perhaps it was somewhat out of 
and wanting this guarantee, the Methodist gentleman failed order, but wishing to set the gentleman right, I denied 
to establish'the book which he produced with its notes, as that 1 had done so. But since then the reporter has handed 
a Catholic Bible. We do not take the Bible on the author- me the notes taken of what I did say, and from them also 
ity of a " King's Printer," who is a speculating publisher, it appears that I said no such thing. He referred to the 
who publishes' it but as a speculation. And why 1 Be- practice of teaching religion in the schools ; but of that I 
cause by the change of a single comma, that which is have disposed already. 

positive may be made negative, and vice rersa, and then He then, while going through the introductory part 
is it the Bible of the inspired writers? It is not. They of the remonstrance of the Methodist Episcopal church, 
proclaim, then, that theirs is a Christianity of reason; of threw out constantly calumnious charges against the 
this they boast, and let them glory. Ours is a Christian- Catholic church and the Catholic rehgion ; he did not 
ity of faith; ours descends by the teaching of the Church ; throw them out as assertions but by inuendo, as "ifit 
we are never authorized to introduce new doctrines, be- be true," and " I should like to know," as if I a™ ^e'-e 
cause we contend that no new doctrine is true, from the for the purpose of supplying every thing he would ' like 
time of the Apostles, unless it has come from the mind to know." And how can I meet him when insinuation 
of God by a special revelation, and to us that is not man- is the form in which his charges are thrown out I Why, 
ifest amono-the Reformers. We are satisfied to trust our their very feebleness takes from an opponent the power 
eternal interests, for weal or woe, on the security of that of refutation. But when he comes to something tangi- 
Catholic Church, and the veracity of the divine promises, ble, then I can meet him. Having gone through a se- 
You perceive, therefore, that Protestants may agree in ries of insinuations, he misrepresents our intentions: not- 
thesystem where this Bible is thus introduced ; but it is withstanding we disclaim such an intention, he in- 
not in accordance with the principles of Catholics that dulges in the gratuitous supposition that it your honor- 
each one shall derive therefrom his own notions of Chris- able body should grant our petition, we shall secret- 
tianity. It is not the principle of Catholics, because they ly teach the Catholic religion. But it we do, is riot the 
believe in the incompetence of individual reason, in mat- law as potent against us as against the 1 ubiic Schools ! 
ters of such importance. It is from this self-sufficiency If they teach religion, as they acknowledge, why may 
and imputed capacity that men derive such notions of not we ? We are not grasping to obtain power over 
self-confidence, which, owing to a want of power to con- others, but we desire in sincerity to benefit a portion ol 
troul in some domestic circles, if taught to our children, our own neglected children. I shall passover,therefore, 
lead to disobedience and disregard of the parental au- agreat dealof what the gentleman " would like to kriow, 
i'^oj.\iy for I do not know if it is of importance ta the subject. 

I have been obli-ed to enter into this, which is ra- He said, this Rhemish Testament was published by au- 
ther theological than otherwise, to put you in possession thority ; but he began by a retreat and not by a 
of the true ground. We do not take the Protestant Bible, direct charge, "he did not profess to say that our 




conscience, even though you think it in error, provided dence of fact, he comes here and spreads before the 

it does not conflict with the public rights. I have American people the slander and calumny that the Ca- 

sufficiently disoposed of the addresses of the two legal ge- iholics by their notes and comments, teach the lawfulness 

ntleraen who have spoken. I will now call the attention of murdering heretics. Now, Sir, I will take up that 



4? 

book and the parts he read with the notes, giving an ex- publication ; the Catholics did not circulate it, but the 
planation, as though they came from Catholics. Do you Protestant Ministers did, to mislead their flocks and to 
know the history of that book, Sir? If not, I can tell bring infamy on their Catholic fellow citizens, 
you. When Queen Elizabeth scourged the Catholics " The Douay Bible is usuallj' so called, because al- 
from their altars and drove them ioto exile, theie men though the New Testament was first translated and pub- 
held a common notion, which was natural and just, that lished at Eheims, yet the Old Testament was printed 
England was their country and that they were suffering some years after at Douay ; the English Jesuits having 
unmerited persecution. The new religion, not satisfied removed their Monastery from Eheims to Douay, befce 
with toleration for itself, grasped the substance of their version of the Old Testament was completed. In 
things, grasped the power of the State, seized all their the year lisi6,an edition, including both the Douay Old, 
temples ; and not even satisfied with this, scourged the and the Rhemish New Testament, was issued at iJublin, 
Catholics from their home and country; and they did containing a large number of comments, replete with im- 
write these notes, and why? They wrote them in exile, piety, irreligion, and the most fiery persecution. That 
smarting under the lash and the torture, and in connec- edition was published under the direction of all the Dig- 
tion too with a plan for the invasion of England, by nitaries of the Roman Hierarchy in Ireland ; and about 
Philip II. of Spain. Their^ object was to disseminate a- thiee hundred others of the most influential subordinate 
mongst Catholics of England dissateetion to Queen; Eliz- Priests." 

abeth and thus, dispose them to join the true Catholic and Now I called for the gentleman's evidence for this, 
oppose theheretics, because the heretics were their ene- and the gentlen)an was found mimis licibev.' — he has it 
mies, were the enemies of their rights, and had crushed not to give. The prints said so, and he believed the 
them. But when that book appeared in England, was there prints ! Now, Sir, this is a grave ( harge and I am dis- 
a single approval given it, a single Catholic that received posed to treat it gravely ; but I should not feel worthy 
it? Not one. When it was published for political ends — of the name of a man, I should feel myself unworthy of 
to aid the invasion of Philip — did the English Catholics being a member of the American family, if I had not 
receive it ? Never. But the gentleman said it was pub- risen and repelled such a charge as it deserved, 
lished by the Bishops of Ireland, and with their approba- Dr Bond. You have not read all I read, 
tion and with the approbation of a great number of the Bishop Hughes. 1 will read all the gentleman may 
Catholic clergy ; and this after his own admission that, wish if he will not keep me here, reading all night. 
insomuch as it had not been approved by the Holy See, " The notes which urged the hatred and m^urder of 
the Bishop of Rome, it was not of authority in the (a- Protestants, attracted the attention of the British 
tholic church. Now I shall take up both parts, and first churches, and to use the wo-ds of T. Hartwell Home, 
I should like to know where is his authority, that it was 'hat edition of the Rhemish Testament printed at Dublin 
published by the Bishops of Ireland ? I pause for a re- in 1816, corrected and revised and approved by Dr. 
ply, and I shall not consider it an interruption. Troy, Roman Catholic Archbishop of Dublin, was re- 

Dr. Bond. Do you wish an answer? viewed by the British Critic, vol. 8. p. 29G — 308 ; Krw 

Bishop Hughes. I do, Sir; I desire your authority. Series ; and its dangerous tenets both civil and rcl.- 
Dr. Bond. , Why if we are to believe history, it is gious, were exposed." 
true ; it is stated in the British Critic. That is the testimony. 

Bishop Hughes. Oh ! I am satisfied. Dr. Bond. There is another paragraph. 

Dr. Bond. It could not have been reviewed if it did Bishop Hughes. Well, I will read the other. 
not exist. " This publication, with many others of a similar cha- 

Bishop Hughes. Oh ! It is here, and that proves its racter, produced so great an excitement in Britain, that 
existence without the British Critic. It was gone out finally several of the most prominent of the Irish Roman 
of print again, and not a Catholic now heard of it, but Prelates were called before the English Parliament to 
your liberal Protestant clergymen of New York, repub- prove their own work. Then, and upon oath, with all 
Jished it. What for ? To bring infamy on the Catholic official solemnity, they peremptorily disclaimed the vol- 
name ; and it was from this Protestant edition, and umes published by their own instigation, and under their 
not from Ireland that the Methodist gentleman received own supervision and auspices, as books of no authoritv ■ 
it. 1 am now not surprised at his saying so often that because they had not been ratified by the Pope, and 
he would " like to know," for a little more knowledge received by the whole Papal church." 
would be of great advantage to him. I need not read it. Now, what authority have we for this charge of perjujy 
Dr. Bond. Oh, you had better. against the Irish Bishops, better than the gentleman's 

Bishop Hughes. Well, Sir, any thing to accomodate own ? It is so stated here ; what authority is there for 
you. that ? 

" It is a remarkable fact, that notwithstanding the Dr. Bond. It was so stated before the British Par- 
Vulgate New Testament, as it was translated and ex- liament. 

pounded by the members of the Jesuit College at Bishop Hughes. I should regret, on account of your 
Rheims in 1582, has been republished in a great number age, if I used any expression that might be deemed 
of editions, and their original annotations, either more or harsh. 

less extensively, have been added to the text ; yet as Dr. Bond. Take the liberty to say v/hat you please, 
soon as it is appealed to as an authority, the Roman Bishop Hughes. With regard to these notes, I have to 
Priests admit both the value of the book, and the obli- observe, that they were written in an age, (1582) when the 
gation of the Papists to believe its contents. We have rights ofconscience were but little understood. Protes- 
a very striking modern instance to prove this deceit- tants in that age every where persecuted, not only Calhn- 
fulness." lies, but each other. And long after, the Puiit ins of 

Now It must be recollected that this is a Protestant New England with the Bible, and without notes, perse- 



is 

Cuted with torture, and even to hanging Iheir fellow Pro- suits to the state of society, ivhifh grew unavoidably out of 
testants. 'It was not wonderful, therefore, if in such an the breaking up of the Roman Empire, and the incursion 
ao-e Catholics were found to entertain the opinions set of new and uncivilized nations and tribes. Society had 
forth in the notes. But bad as they are, it is remarkable been dissolved, with all the order and laws of the ancient 
that the}- do not sustain the calumnious cliarge of the Rev. civilization. It was the slow work of the church to re-tir- 
Gentleman, that they " teach the lawfulness of murdering ganise the new and crude mateiials — to gather and arrange 
heretics." the fragments — to re-model society and social institutions 

And now. Sir, let me call your attention to the book as best she might. There was no other power that could 
itself digest the crude mass ; the fierce infusions of other 

In the 13th chapter of St. Matthew, there is this text, at tongues and tribes and nations that had, during the chaos, 
the 29th verse. It occurs in the Parable of the cockle become mixed up with the remains of ancient Roman ci- 
(in the Protestant version tares) and the wheat, in answer vil'isation. She had to begin by religion, their con- 
to Christ's Disciples who asked : " 'Vill ihou that ice version to Christianity being the first step ; and the 
gather il up ?'''' And he said, no : Lest perhaps gather- Catholic church being the only one in existence. Hence 
ing up the cocldts, you may root up the wheat also together the laws of religion are the first with which those new 
vtiih it. The annotation on this is : populations became acquainted, and the only ones that 

■'Ver.29. Lest you pluck up also. Tlie good must lolerate the evil Could restrain them. Hence too, what is called Canon Law 
when it is so strong that it cannot be redressed without danger and went before, and Civil Law gradually followed, often tiniBS 
disturbance of the whole Church, and commit the matter to God's j^j^^j ^^nj ^j^j deriving its force from the older form 
ludgment in the latter day. Otherwise, where lU men, be they Here- r i • i .• t'i . i i . c ■ . i -i 

tics or other mclelactors, may be punished or suppressed without dis- of legislation. The actual State of society made it 
turbance and Iiazard of the good, they may, and ought, by public au- unavoidable that this should be the order of things. Civil 
thority, either spiritual or temporal, to be chastised or executed." governments, oftentimes engrafted whole brandies of the 

They may and ought " by public authority .'" Why the ecclesiastical law in their secular codes ; and ecclesiasti- 
proposition of the gentleman was, that Catholics were cal judges were often the interpreters and administrators 
taught to kill thuir Protestant neighbors. Now there is of both 

not through ut the whole volume a pniposition so absurd Canonical law and civil law thus blended, became the 
as the i Jea conveyed by him. Bad as the notes are they codes of civil government, from the necessity of (he case, 
require falsification to bear him out. and it is to this state of things that the authors of the notes 

Aijain, Lul.e, 9 ch. v. 54. 55 : And when his Disciples make allusion in their text. But, as I have remarked, the 
James and John had seen, it., they said. Lord will thou we subject is too deep to be properly discussed on this occa- 
say thiit re come down from heaven and consume them? sion, when time is so biief, and so many speakers to be 
And tii.rniiig he rebuked them, saying, You know not of replied to. 
what spirit you are. Annotation : We now come to Acts, 25 v. II. 

"Ver. 55 He rebuked them. Not justice, nor all rigorous punish- '^ I appeal to Cesar. IfPatil, both to save himself from whipping 
ment of sinners is here forbidden, nor Elias' fact repreliended, nor tlie j^„(] f,.(„.j^ death, sought bv the Jews, doubted not to cry for honor cf 
Churcli or Christian Princes blamed for putting Heretics to death.— f].,^ Roman laws, and to a'ppeal to Cesar, the Prince of the Romans, 
But none of ihese should be done for desire of our particular revenge, ^^j y^j christened, how n.uch more may we call fo aid of Christian 
or without discretion and regard of their amendment, and example to ponces and their laws, for the punisliment of Heretics, and for the 
others. Therefore Peter used his power upon Ananias and Saphu-a Church's defence against them. .August. Epist. 50." 
when he struck them both down to death for defrauding the Church." ,. r, ■ . j ■. - 
„ . ,. , 1, , , 1 ■ Here you see the working ot human interest ; and it is 

I am alraid I shall fatigue this honorable body by g<..ng ^^^ ^^^^ ^^ ^j^^^ ^ pTotestants and Catholics. «or 

over th.se notes, nnr is ,t necessary that I should fi,llow ^^.j, .^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^^ ^^^ j^^^,^ ^^^^ ,j_^ ^,^^^ ^^ ^.^^^ 

the gentleman in all his discursive wandering... There ^^^ sacred things, a stepping-stone, to promote temporal 
IS n ,thmg in lh:s to authorize the murdering ol heretics i^jg,.gg,g_ ^l, ,5,^,^^ -heretics have banished us and 

Bui. a.uin Luke 14 ch. 23 v. And the Lord said to .^ .^ ^^^ naturally the interest of Catholics to join a Catho- 
the se.va.i, Go forth unto theways "■'^dhedjresj and com- ^.^ p^.^^^ ^^ ^^^^^ ^^^ ^,^^^ persecutors." As if they 
pel tlum In enter, that my house may bejillcd. Annotation : ^^^ ^^.^ ^^ ^^^;_. ^^„^^^ Catholics of England, a Catholic 

"Compel them. The vehement persuasion tliat God useth, both exter- p^jjj^g ^yjn soon make a descent on our country, it will be 
natly, bv tbrce of his word and miracles, and internally by his grace, to . . ,,„•„•• ...i;„„ .^„„.„ (1,„ 

bring us unio him is cal ed compelling: not that heforcrth any to come your duty as it IS your interest, to join in putting down the 
to him ai^ainstlheirwills.butthat he can alter and mollifyahard heart, heretic Elizabeth, who has driven US from our country. . 
an I make liim willing, that before would no'. Augustine, also, refer- j g^ ^q,,, ((, Hebrews, ch. 10. V. 29. How much more 
reth .his compeUii.i; to the penal laws, which CatliolicPriiK^esdo^j^^^ ,/„-„A- yoH, doth he deserve worse punishments which hath 
use aLTainst Hereiics and bchismatics, proving that they who are by . , -^ ,' „ ,- ^ , i _r . ■ ^ ! w ;) j 

their fiM-racr profession in Baptism subject to the Catholic Church, and trodden the Son of God underfoot, and esteemed the btood 
are departed from the same after seels, may, and ought to be compell- qJ (Ji^ Testament polluted wherein he is sanctified, and hath 
ed inio the unity and society of the Universal Church again ; and j^^^^ contrarilv to the spirit of grace ? Annotation : 
therefore, in this sense, by the two former parts ot the parable, the ■.' ^ ■' ^ 

Jews first, and secondly the Gentiles, that never believed before in '■ The blood of the Testmnent. Whosoever maketh no more account 
Christ were invited by fair, sweet means only ; but by the third, such of the blood of Christ's sacrifice, either as shed upon the cross, or as 
are invited as the Church of God hath power over, because they in the chaliceof the altar, for our Saviour callcth that, also, t. eblood 
promised in B.iptism, and therefore are to be revoked not only by gentle of the New Testament, than he doth of the blood of halves and eoats, 
means, but by just punishment also." or of other common drinks, is M'orthy death, and God will in the next 

Sir, the punishment of spiritual off-ences and the allu- life, if it be notpunished he.e.revengc it with grievouspumshment.' 
sions here made to it, have their roots too deep, and too " God will in the next life punish !" Why, after all, 
wide spreading to be entered into and discussed in the bad as these notes, are, objectionable and scorned and le. 
time that I could occupy this evening. It would be im- pudiated as they were by the Catholics of England ; bad 

ojiiblu to go over the historical grounds which suggest as they are, they do not sustain the gentleman whose as- 
^^emselves tn connection with the subject, to shew the re- sertion has gone as far beyond the (ruth, as it is infinitely 



49 
beyond chanty. I do not find the notes from the Apoca- said ho rend that article ; it i. eittremely unfai.' and uncandid ; ii gives 

/ ,:, •' , , , . , • 11 ,1, f wuii audacious talsehood, pas a^cs, as if from the notes f the Kheim- 

lypse, which would have gone to siiew in like mannei mat, ^^^^ Testament, which cannot he found in that work ; and, with mean 

btxd as they were, they do not support the accusationa cunning, it seeks to avoid detection by quoting, witliout giving either 

jjg_ text or page. Throughout, it is written i.. the true spirit of the Inquisi- 

„ * T, mi .1, „„ ,„nl1 tion, it is violent, vindictive, and uncharitable. He was sorry to under- 

Dr. Bond. There are others as well. stand that it was wr tten by ministers of the Estabhslied Church; bul 

Bishop Hughes. Well, I will give you the rest. _ i,e trusted, that when the charge of intemperance should be again 

The President. Perhaps it is not necessary. But if brought forward against theCathol.es, their aacusers would cast their 

they are, it is not necessary to interrupt the gentleman. eyes on this coarse ann illiberarattack-heretheyniay iind « specimen 

iiicj^ aic, ii .« u.,1. 111.V-., , / . .1, , . 1 .Uq of real intemperance. But the very acceptable work oi imputing prin- 

Bishop Hughes. Such thea sir, are ttie notes put by tne ^^p,^^ ^^ ^,^^ j^.^^^^ p^^pl^ ^^l^.^l^ ^1^^^ ^^^^^ ,^^1^^ ^„j which they abhor, 

Catholic translators of the New Testament at Rheims in was not confined to The BHt.sk Critic. Tlie Courier, a news, aper 

1582— smarting as they were under the lash of Eliza- whose circulaiion is immense, lent its hand, and the provincial news- 

, ,, ? Ill- c . I ,;.u u >„<> t« iVio papers throughout England — those papers which arc forever silert 

bath's persecution, and looking forward with hope to the ;^,ie„ any thing might be said favorable to Ireland, but are ever active 

result ofthe invasion by Philip H. They were repudiated to disseminaie°vhatevei: may tend to her disgrace or dishonor. They 

indignantly by the Catholics of England and Ireland from have not hesitated to impute to the Catholics of this country the doc- 

*t,o fieof . „„/l ,>,oKo «„f ,>f iirint until Bnmp Prntpqtant trines contained in those offensive notes— and it wai iheir uuty to dis- 

the first; and were out ot print, until some Irotestant ^,^;^^^ ^|^^,^^_ Nothing was more remoiefrom the true sentiments ofthe 

ministers of New York had them published m order to i„shpeople. Thesenoteswereof English growth; they were written 

mislead the people and to excite odium against the Catho- in agitated times, when the titleof Elizabeth was questioned, on the 

lie name grounds of legitimacy. Party spirit was then extreme y violent; — 

r, ^ , ' ct- • ^i. 1 1 J 1 rr . ( „r „n politicsmixedwithre!igion,and,of course, disgraced it. Q.ueen Mary, 

But here, Sir, IS the acknowledged Testament ol all ^(Scotland, had active partisans, who thnigh? it would forward their 
Catholics who speak the English language ; this is known purposes to translate the Bible, and add to it those ob. oxious notes. 
and may be read by any one , it is the lllh edition in this But very short.y afiertheestablishment of the College at Douay, th s 

country, it corresponds with those used in England and ^1'^'^'^''''°"^' """1^.17'^ ""^h'' '""^i^^^^^^^^^^^ 

^ , V , •- . I r 1 ■ •. .u who, at the same time, called for and received the aid ot tne ccoicn 

Ireland; and it any such notes can be tound in it, then and Irish Colleges. The book was thus suppressed, and an edition of 

believe Catholics to be what they have been falsely repre- the BiUe, with notes, was published at Douay, which has ever been 

sented to be ^'"'^ adopted by the Catholic Church ; so that they not only condemn- 

„ , ,, o .1 I- ] • „ „-„;,o.;„^ tVno ed and suppressed the Rheimish edition, but they published an edition, 

But the Rev. gentleman disclaims onginating the ^^.^1^ ^^^^^n^^ ^^,^.^1^^^ ^1^.^^^;^^ I^^^^^>^ ^„^,j J^t'„,.g^d^ Fromlhat 

slander. He took, it we are told, from the 'British Critic, period there have been but two editions of the Rheimish Testament ; 
as if that which is false must become true, from the mo- the first had very little circulation ; the late one was published by a 
ment it is put in type and printed But Sir he should ^:!'::^^l^^'^ ^^:i,^^^^^^ 
have known that the article in the Bnlish Critic was re- ^^j ^^^ ^^^^^ ^j-y^,^ ^j. j,^^ g;^|g "jj^ ^^^^ ^p ^^^ matter merely 
futed at the time, and has been since reluled in the Dublin as a speculation in trade. He meant to publish a Catholic Bible, 
Review And it so happens that Doctor Troy, then Ca- and having put hia hand upon the Rheimish edition, he commenced 
tholic Archbishop of Dublin, and who is here represented *" P"»t 't in numbers. He subsequently became bankrupt, and his 
. ' , , V 11. , ■»» 1 ■, property in this transaction vested in Mr, Camming, a respectable 

as having approved these notes, had to sustain a law-suit bookseller in this city, who is either a Protestant or Presbyterian; 
with thd Dublin publisher, who was also a Protestant — but he carried on the work, like M'Namara, merely to make money 
not for approving the work, but for denouncing it, which of it, as a mercantile speculation ; and yet, said Mr, OConnell, our 
1 » 1 .u„ „,ri,K .l,„,-5, c„oo„l.5t;nr. -,r,rl ;n,rnlvcrl o anil encmies havB talceu It up wlth avldlty I they havB asserted that ths 

destroyed the nub islier s speculation, ana invoiveu a suit .. ^ /■ .i / . •'^u j i .i. /i„*i,..i:«« .*« +r..*a 

uoaiiujcu wiv. ^i. ^ J ,, m.- ■ 1 sentiments of those notes are cherished by the Catholics in this 

against the Archbishop tor damages! ! 1 his is attested country. He would not be surprised to read of speeches in the next 
by Dr. Troy's letter, now before me, and by the legal Parliament on the subject. It was a hundred to one but that some 
proceedin<rs, and in a speech made by Daniel O'Connell of our briefless barristers have already commenced coinposing their 
r ,, /-i° -o . .u i-.„„ /lOTT \ ,.,„ j^„,i dull calumnies, and that we shall have speeches from them, lor the 

to the Catholic Boakd at the time, (1S17,) we fiad edification of the Legislature, and the protection ofthe Church.- 
the following : — There was not a moment to be lost — the Catholics should, with one 

" From the Dublin Evening Post ofthe 6th of December, 1817. voice, disclaim those very odious doctrines. He was sure theie was 

CATHOLIC BOARD.— THE RHEIMISH BIBLE. no' a single Catholic in Ireland that did not feel as he did, abhor- 

A remarkably full meeting of the Catholic Board took place on '^"'^^ a* ^'^^ principles these notes contam. Illiberality has been at- 
Thursday last, pursuant to adiournment-OwEN O'Conneb, Esq., in tributed to the Irish people, but they are grossly wronged. He had 
Ihe Chair. ' "i ' ^ften addressed the Catholic people of Ireland. He always found 

Afier some preliminary business, Mr. O'Connell rose to make them applaud every sentiment of liberality, and the doctrine of per- 
his promised motion, for the appointment of a Committee to prepare feet freedom of conscience ; the right of every human being to have 
a denunciation of the intolerant doctrines contained in the Rheimish his religious creed, whatever that creed might be, unpolluted by the 
Notes. impious interference of bigotted or oppressive laws. Those sacred 

Mr. O'Connell saiJ, that on the last day of meeting he gave notire rights,and that generous sentiment, were never uttered at a Catholic 
that he would move for a committee, to draw up a disavowal ofthe aggregate meeting, without receiving at the instant the loud and the 
very dangerous and uncharitable doctrines contained in certain notes to unanimous applause ofthe assembly. 

the Rheimish Testament. He now rose to submit that moiion to the "It might be said that those meetings were composed ofmererab- 
consideration jf the Board. The la;e edition of the Rheimish Testa- ble. Well, be it so. For one he should concede that, for the sake 
ment in this co.aitry gave rise to much observation; — that work was of argument. But what followed? Why, just this: — that the Cafh- 
denounced by Dr. Troy ; an action is now depending between him and olic rabble, without the advantages of education, or of the influence 
a respectable bookseller in this city ; and it would bs the duly of the of polished society, were so well acquainted with the genuine prin- 
Board not to interfere, in tne remotest degree, wjth the subject of that ciples of Christian charity, that they, the rabble, adopted and _ap- 
action, but, on the other hand, the Board could not let .he present op- plauded sentiments of liberality, and of religious freedom, which, 
porlunity pass by of recording their sentiments of disapprobation and unfortunately, met but little encouragement from the polished and 
even of abhorrence of the bigoted and intolerant doctrines promulgated educated of other sects.'' 

in that work. Their feelings of what was wise, consistent, and lib- (Then follows the passage which we have quoted in the preceding 
eral, would suggest such a proceeding, even though the indecent caluni- article.) 

iiies of their enemies had not rendered it indispensibl~. A work call- ,, ., „,^ ,„ „ ,. „„„„„,<. „_j „._.,•. j «,« m„,j„ >,„;„„ 

,„,„.,.■„.,.,, J 1 . J u .1 " Mr. O'Connkll's motion was put and carriea, the words being 

ea The British Critic, h d, no doubt, reen read by some gentlemen j rl th -1 

who heard him. The circulation of the last number has been very amended thus: 

extensive, and exceeded, almost beyond calculation, the circulation of ' That a Committee be appointed to draw up an address on the oc- 

any former number, in consequence of an article which appeared in it casion of the late publication of the Rheimish Testament, with a 

on tho lata edition of the Rheimish Testament. He (Mr. O'Connell) view to have the same submitted to an aggregate meeting.' ' 



50 

Such, Sir, are the history and the authority of the notes the Rev. gentleman undertook to support in his speech. 

put to the Rheimish translation of the Ne'v Testament. He said that history must not be falsified for our occnm- 
ili^' iituuuc.iitiua uf It. iruy, spoiltil liic Soic; ot the modatioii That llie black and insuhing passages nijaiust 
work in Ireland, and the publisher's sent the remaining us and our religion, placed in the hands of our children at 
copies for sale to this country ; but even this did not re. the Public Schools, were not to be charged as a defect in 
munerate him, as his loss was estimated at £500 sterling, the system — inasmuch as the Trustees could find worse. 
It must have been from one of these exiled copies, that but would be obllgud to falsify history itself to find better, 
the Protestant edition published in this city, now produced, From this defence you can judge what coiifideDce Catho- 
was taken. These being the facts of the case, if I were a lies can place in this Society, or in the schools under their 
Protestant, I should feel ashamed of a clergyman of my charge. 

church, who, from either malice or ignorance, siiould take I contended that there existed portions of history emi- 
up such a book, with the unchristian view of blackening nenlly honourable to Catholics. But, says he, " history 
he character of any denomination of my fellow citizens, is philosophy, teaching by example — the good and the bad 
But not only this. Sir, but look at the array of the names must be taken together." Then how does it happen that 
of Protestant Ministers in this city certifying, contrary the bad alone is presented in the Public Schools 1 Be- 
to the fact, that this text and these notes are by the autho- sides, if all the good and all the bad which history ascribes 
rity of the Catholic church, and then say, whether there is to Catholics must be presented, it would make a library 
no prejudice against the Catholics ! I shall now dismiss rather large for a class-book in the Public Schools, 
the subject. Hence the necessity of a selection ; and how is it, that in 

Sir, the Methodist gentleman, in the whole of his ad- the selection the bad is brought out, and the good passed 
dress, in which he made the charge 1 have now dis- over in silence as if it did not exist? Why is the burning 
posed of, and of which I wish him joy, slyly changed the of Huss selected ? Why the burning of Cranmer 1 Why 
nature and bearing of my language in the remarks I made are our children taught in the face of all sense and decen- 
last evening. For instance, respecting Purgatory, of cy, that Martin Lulher did more for learning, than any 
which I observed if they were not satisfied with our Pur- other man "since the days of the Apostles !" Why is 
gatory and wished to go farther, they might prove the " Phelim Mashee " represented as " sealing his soul with 
truth of the proverb, which says they may " go farther a wafer," — in contempt to the holiest mystery, known to 
and fare worse." He said I " sciii " them farther. But Catholics, the Sacred Eucharist ? Why are intemperance 
that corresponds with the rest. I did not send them far- and vice set forth as the necessary and natural effects of 
ther. I here disavow such feelings in the name of human the Catholic Religion] All this put in the hands of Ca- 
nature and of that venerable religion which I profess. tholic children, by this society, claiming to deserve the 

But he has seen that "betting," as he was pleased to confidence of Catholic parents ! 
call it, is a sin, because forsooth, " he would get my mo- Now the Methodist gentleman says that all this is right 
ney without an equivalent." Now I think he suspected — that the ^ustees could not possibly within the last ten 
the contrary. But I did not propose betting. His ca- centuries, fin3 history which would not be offensive to Ca- 
lumny had taken me by surprise ; but was it not fortunate, tholics — and that to make it otherwise, it must be falsified, 
almost providential, that I had at hand a direct refutation. Now, Sir, I should like to know, whether it can be expect- 
forifhis charge had gone abroad uncontradicted, the ig- ed that we should have any confidence in schools, for the 
norant or bigotled would have taken it on his authority, support of which we are taxed, in which our religious 
and quoted it with as much assurance as he did on that of feelings are insulted, our children perverted, and whose 
the British Critic — and for the same unhily purpose. He advocates tell us gravely that we ought to be satisfied, that 
took me I say at an unfair moment, and then it was I things cannot be otherwise, unless history is to be falsi- 
stated that if the gentleman could prove his charge — fied for our convenience ! To this we never shall con- 
there were gentlemen hero who had confidence in my sent. Religious intolerance has done much to degrade 
word, and I said I would pledge myself to forfeit $1000 us, and its most dangeious instrument was depriving us 
to be distributed in charities to the poor, as this council of education. 

might direct, provided he would agree to the same for- The gentleman (Dr. Bond) has corrected some of my 
feiture, if he failed to prove it. This is not betting. remaiks of last evening, on the Methodist Episcopal 

He says that his church has taught hiin the sinfulness Church. The fact is, the style of Remonstrance present - 
of betting. But this did not deserve that name. It was only ed here, as emanating from that church, imposed on me 
an ordeal to test his confidence in the veracity of the the necessity of alluding to the history and principles of 
slander contained in the Methodist Remonstrance. I may that denomination. It is unpleasant to me at any time, to 
not indeed, have the same scruples about what he calls use language calculated to wound the feelings of any sect 
gambling, that he has ; but I do remember, what he seems or class of my fellow citizens. But they who offer the 
to have forgotten, that there IS a precept of the Decalogue unprovoked insult, must not complain of the retort. I 
— a commandment of the living God, which says : '' Thou stated that the Methodists in England had never done a so- 
shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." litary act to aid in the spread of civil and religious liberty 

I now pass to another portion of this gentleman's re- in that country ; that whilst the Catholics aided the Dis- 
marka. He contends that it is impossible to furnish read- senters in obtaining the repeal of the Test and Corpora- 
ing lessons from history for the last ten centuries, without tion Acts, the Methodists never contributed to that niea- 
producing what must be offensive to Catholics. The his- sure, by so much as one petition in its favour. But it 
tory of Catholics is so black, that the Public Schools could appears I fell into a mistake, which the gentleman cor- 
ivot, in his view, find a solitary bright page to refresh the rected with great precision and gravity. The " Metho. 
eye of the Catholic children. This is set forth in the Re- dist Society," in England, he tells us, is something quite 
-naoustrance of the Methodist Episcopal Church, and this different from the " Methodist Episcopal Church," in tho 



51 

United Stfl'tes. The former consider themselves only as a Dellion,"--to crush the rising liberties of your infant country! 

society in the Established Church, just as the religious Now, sir, I think I was autliorized to state that the Me- 

orders, the Dominicans, Jesuits, &c., are in the Catholic thodists have done as little for the spread of human liberty, 

communion. Certainly it is new to me to learn that the the rights and equality of mankmd, as any other denomina- 

Methodists and the church of England are in such close tion — no matter how old or how young. If they have not 

and Rffectionate spiritual relationship. For although the done extensive mischief, of which the gentleman boasts, it is 
Methodists considerthemselves a society within the pale of to be remembered that they never possessed supreme civil 

the Establishment, the members of the Established church power, and that in the orderoftime they have been too insig- 

are quite of a ditTerent opinion, since it was only the other nificant,and are still too juvenile to have done extensive evil, 

day that I read of a Presijyter of that church having been If they liave done private good as the gentleman contends, 

suspended by his Bishop, forhaving preached in a Method- I confess it reminds me of Stephen Girard's charity. He 

dist Meeting-house! So that the affection of the IMethod- was exceedingly rich ; and because he was ricli, people 

ists for the Church of England, does not appear to be very thought he was very wise. And inasmuch as he despised 

cordially reciprocated. ^" external show of religion, it was inferred he was very 

This gentleman tells us that the Methodists who are only a charitable to the poor, without however making a display of 

'Society" m England are an "Episcopal church in America.'- it- If it was so, no man ever practiced better the counsel 

Sfes, sir, Mr. Wesley, who was himself but a FHm^, actually of the Gospel "not to let the left hand know what the right 

consecrated a Bishop for the United States ! And hence the hand doeth" in the matter. It was so private that no one 

Methodist £pwcoj)aZ Church— a new order of Episcopacy, ever could find it out. So it is with the Methodist Church 

deriving their authority and character from Mr. John Wes- with regard to any public benefit ever conferred on mankind 

ley, a mere Friest. But with or without Bishops, their — we have yet to hear of it. 

whole history proves how much they imbibed of the intoler- I will now satisfy the gentleman on another subject which 

ance of the established Church of England, to which he tells seems to trouble him and on which he "should like to know." 

us they are so intimately allied in that country, but which at And as other gentlemen have alluded to it, I hope the same 

all times spurns the connexion. This same John Wesley explanation will suffice in reply to t'lem all. 

held and wrote that no government ought to grant toleration Before the British government released the Catholics from 
to Catholics — because, forsooth, either from ignorance of the penalties under wliich they labored, among which not 

Catholic doctrines or bigotry against them, he was pleased the least was the exclusion of the schoolmaster, they called 

to believe and assert falsely that they held it lawful to mur- upo" them to disavow principles which they knew Catholics 

der heretics. When the government of Great Britain was did not entertain. But in order to reconcile the prejudices 

about to mitigate the code of penal laws and persecution of the English people, ihey had an investigation of those 

against the Catholics in 1780, who was more fervent and im;)Uted principles before the houses of Pa-liament—they 

fanatical in opposition to the exercise of mercy than John called upon some distinguished Catholic citizens and ques. 

Wesley 1 The great object of the Protestant Association, tioned them on several points such as those the gentleman 

headed by Lord George Gordon, was to oppose the least has so frequently referred to, among which was the spiritual 

mitigation of severity. Who was more active in the Intel, authority of the Pope. From the testimony which they took 

lectual operations of that society than Mr. John Wesley? I now quote. It is part of the testimony of Dr. Doyle, 

Under the leadership of Lorii George Gordon they raised a Bishop of Kildare— but other Bishops and public men wera 

rebellion in that year, and when the mob had plundered, de. a" examined on the same subject. 

stroyed, and burnt the houses and churchesof the Catholics, Question. "Accoiding to the princ pies which govern 

spread consternation throughout the city of London.andcaus- the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland, has the Pope any 

ed human blood to flow in torrents, we have this same Wesley authority to issue commands, ordinances, or injunctions, 

with sanctimonious gravity charging it all on the Catholics general or special, without ihe consent of the King?" 

— the victims of its fury — and contending that it was a Answer. " He has." 

"Pojiish plot." His services in that Association had been Question. "If ho should issue such orders, are the sub- 
acknowledged by a unanimous vote of thanks, dated Febru- .jects of His Majesty, particularly the clergy, bound to obey 
ary, ITtli of that very year. This was in 1780 — when the them ?" 

mighty events which had occurred in this country taught the Answer. " The orders that he has a right to issue must 

British government the expediency of relaxing the penal regard things that are of a spiritual nature ; and when his 

laws against so iarge a portion of her subjects in England commands regard such things ihr clergy are bound to obey 

and Ireland. The rebound of those events had been felt them ; but were he to issue commands regarding things not 

throughout tlie world. Tliey were the events created and spiritual, the clergy are not in anywise bound to obey them." 

accomplished by the great fathers of this Republic, then Consequently if His Holiness, as the gentleman, Mr. 

struggling into existence; and whilst Catholics and Protes- Ketchum, said, should forbid the reading of the Declaration 

tants fought bravely side by side in the ranks of indepen- o'" Independence, it would not be of any authority, 

dence, — wliile a Catholic Carroll was signing its charter— Mr. Ketchum. Does the book say so? 

and another Carroll, a Priest, and (tell it not in Gath) a Je- Bishop Hughes. I am authority myself in matters of 

suit, was employed on an embassy to render the population my religion. Surely, sir, 1 am not here to betray it, and 

of Canada friendly, or at least not hostile to our struggle— I a"! astonished that the gentleman is not better acquainted 

whilst a Catholic "Commodore Barry was doing the office of with history on the matter. He amused us a little while 

a founder and father to our young and gallant''Navy— what ago with the idea of what terrible consequences might en- 

was John Wesley doing ? He was creeping to the British sue if the Pope, a " foreign potentate," should forbid us to 

throne to iayatthe feet ofHisMajesty'sgovernmentiheofTer read the Declaration of Independence— or forbid the read- 

to raise a regiment and put them at the disposal of the crown, iug of tiie Bible in our Common Schools. He even apo- 

expiessly to put down what ho called the "American Re- logized for his alarm with singular simplicity— " he meant 



62 

no reflection. This matter had come out in evidence for her defence under your auspicious conducl." This great man, 
here." It was then, sir, I wondere.l at his not having "'^'o ^^^ utterly incapable of flaiiery and deceit, inters in aswenhe 
J , • , , • 7 ■. . 1-..1 ■ . following sentiments, which I give in his own words: As man- 

read history, or having read it to so little advantage. ^ind become moie liberal, they will bs more apt to allow that all 

Did he not know, that long before the Declaration of those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the commu- 
, J J -tr ■ ^ L- ,, /-I .1 I- . . nity are equally entitled to the proiection of civil sovernment. I 

Independence, Venice rose out ot the sea, a Catholic statt!, hope ever to see America among the foremost nations in examples 
with all her republican glory round about her? And of justice and liberality ; and I presume that your fellow-citizens 
when the Pope, in his capacity of " foreign potentate," will never forget the patriotic part which you took in the aceom- 

attempted to invade her temporal rights, her Catholic sons ^Zt'^'f,hl-^-^i!JZ'^^f''Yn^^^^^ their govern- 

J.J Lxu , 1 1 1 1 iji- ment, or the important assisiance which they received from a na- 

did what they ought to have done, they unsheathed their tion in which the Roman Catholic faith is professed." By the by, 
swords and routed his troops. Did they thereby forfeit sir, 1 would pause for a moment to call the atiention of this commii- 
their allegiance to hiin as spiritual head of the church on '^^ '« ^o™^ °'"'lie names subscribed to this address. Among them 
_„„,i, o x; , ■ , p ,. rr I „„j 1- , , are those of John Carroll, the first Roman Catholic bishop of the 

earth? Mot an iota of it. To a man wlio reads history united States, Charles Carroll, of Carrollton, and Thomas Fitz- 
and understands it, this fact alone points out the difierence, siramons ; for the characters of these distinguished men, if they 
in the creed of Catholics, between the Pope and the Poten- needed vouchers, I would confidently call on the venerable Presi- 
tale. The Venitians knew tliat the Pope in his spiritual dent of this Convention. Bishop Carroll was one of the best men 
.. , , , I- J I.- 1 • i r,i- ij and most humble and devout ot Christians. 1 shall never forget a 

capacity, belongs to a kingdom which is not of this world, tribute to his memory paid by the good and venerable Protestant 
And the allegiance of Catholics to hiin, out of his own BishopWhite, when contrasting the piety with which the Christian 
small dominions, is due to him only in his spiritual capa- Carroll met death, wiih the cold trifling that characterized the last 
city. Whatever temporal right was acquired over inde- moments of the sceptical David Hume. I know not wheiher the 

•'j.,.,,'_ ?. ^ . tribute was more honorable to the piety of the dead, or to the chari- 

pendent states by the Popes in former ages, was owing to ly of the living prelate. Charles Carroll of Cartoliton, the last sur- 
no principle of Catholic doctrine, but purely to the disor- vivcr of the signers of American Independence— at whose death 
ders uf the times and the pusillanimity of weak rulers, who in both houses of the legislature of North Carolina unanimously testi- 
^r/la^i^ o„„.,«„ .u„ r)„ „'„ „ * „♦;„„ ,„„,! .1 „„ „i„„„ u:„ fied their sorrow, as at a national bereavement ! Thomas Fiizsim- 
order to secure the Pope s protection, made themselves his mons.oneof the illustrious convention that framed the Constitution 
vassals. Ihe Popes in such circumstances would have been of the United Siates, and for several years the Representative in 
mere or less than men, had they refused to embrace these Congress from the city of Philadelphia. Were these, and such as 
opportunities of aggrandizement so placed within their 'hese, foes to freedom and unfit for lepublicanism 1 Would it be 
' ' , in. J i, i^T /^ .1 dangerous to permit such men to be sherifls and constables in the 

reach, and often pressed upon tliem. Now every Cath- j^n^ , Read the funeral eulogium of Charles Carroll, delivered 
olic IS familiar with this view of the subject, and yet, at Rome by Bishop England— one of the greatest ornaments of 
except a few of larger minds and better education, it the American Catholic Church— a foreigner indeed liy birth, but 
has hardly penetrated the density of protestant prejudice, an American by adoptionand who becoming an American, solemn- 
,, •' ,' , . . , •' ,r • . Iv abjured all allegiance to every foreign king, prince, and potentate 

Hence you hear thern giving the most absurd construction to whatever-thai eulogium which v/asso much carped at by English 
the duties of Catholics between the supposed conflicting royalists and English tories— and I think you will find it democrat- 
claims of their country, and the imputed principles of J"^ enough to suit the taste and find an echo in the heart o! th.--stern- 

,1 • I- • T> •.. u . 11 i.„J,i: ♦ est republican amongst us. Catholics are ot all countries, ot all 

their religion. Permit me here to call your attention to governments, of all pSlitical creeds. In all ihey are taushtthatthe 
the true and beautiful exposition of the case as set forth kingdom of Christ is not of this world— and that it is their duty to 
in the language of a gentleman, who, though a Catho- render unto Caeser the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the 
lie, is acknowledged to be a man of as high honor, as '^iings that are God's.' 

lofty and patriotic principles, and as unblemished a cha- I shall now proceed with tha testimony of the Irish 
ractei, as any man the nation can boast of; I mean Bishops in order, which was interrupted by the gentleman's 
Judge Gaston of North Carolina. The state has no question. 

son of whom she is, or ought be, prouder. And yet Here, sir, is the testimony of another Bishop— Dr. 
up till within a few years, the laws of that state disqua- Murray, the present Archbishop of Dublin, before a 
lified a Catholic from holding any, even the office of a Committee of the British Parliament, 
constable. In a speech made by Judge Gaston in the " To what extent and in what manner, does a Catholic 
Covention for revising the State Constitution, in reference profess to obey the I'ope ? — Solely iu spiritual matters, or 
to this matter, he saysi • in such mixed matters as came under his government, 

such as marriage for instance, which we hold to be a sa- 

" But it has been objected, that the Catholic religion is imfavora- crament as well as a civil contract ; as it is a sacrament, 
Die to freedom, nay even incompatible with republican instuntions. ... .... , j .i • ■ j- i- ^ 

ingenious speculations on such matters are worth little, and prove " 's a spiritual thing, and comes under the jurisdiction of 

still less. Let me ask who obtained the great charier of English the Pope ; of course he has authority over that spiritual 

freedom, but the Catholic prelates, and barons at Runnemede I- part of it ; but this authority does not affect the civil rights 

The oldest— the purest democracy on earth, is the little Catholic „r,i,„ :„j:„,vi,,„i„ „„„,„„„,;„„ 

republic ofSt.Mivino, not a day's journey from Rome. It has ex- of the individuals contiacting. 

isied now for fourteen hundred years, and is so jealous of arbitraiy " Does this obedience detract from what is due by a Cath- 

power, that the executive authority is divided between two Govern- olic to the state under which he lives ? — Not in the least ; 

ors, who are elected every three months. Was William Tell, the ,u„ „„„,„,„ „ ,i ii„ j:„,; * 

founder of Swiss libertyfa royalist 1 Are the Catholics of the ^^"^ P°"''^rs aie wholly distinct. 

Swiss cantons in love with tyrannyl Are the Irish Catholics "Does it justify an objection that is made to Catholics, 

fricndsto passive obedience and non-resistance? Was Lafayette, j^at their allegiance is divided ? Their allegiance in civil 

Pulaski, or Kosciusko, a foe to civil freedom ? Was Charles Car . i . i i -j j 

roll, of Carrollton, unwilling to jeopard fortune in the cause of lib- matters is completely undivided. 

ertyl Let me give you however, the testimony of George Wash- "Is the duty which the Catholic owes to the Pope, and 

ington. On his accession to the Presidency, he was addressed by the duty which he owes to the King, really and substanti- 

the American Catholics, who adverting to the restrictions on their ,, ^- ■ ^ , -^^1^,1 distinct! 

■worship then existing in some of the States, expressed themselves ■' . •' . 

thus— "The prospect of national prosperity is peculiarly pleasing " How far is the claim, that some Popes have set up to 

to us on another account; because while our country preserves her Temporal Authority, opposed to Scripture and Tradition ? 

freedom and independence we shall have well lounded title to a«! fnn« if mnv hn vp hppn exprcispd as rominir from a 

claim from her justice the equal rights of citizenship as the price As lar as it may Have been exeiciseo as coming from a 

of our blood spilt under your eye, and of our common exertions "ght granted to him by God, it appeajs to me to be con- 



53 

trary to scripture and tradition; but as far as it may hnve ttiat the doctrines ofthecatholic church are always the same, 
been exercised in consequence of a right conferred on immutable. He says, that we boast of this, and we do so, 
him by the different Christian powers, who looked up to roost assuredly. From the hour when they were revealed and 
him at one time, as the great parent of Christendom, who taught by Divine authority until the present, — from the ris- 
appointed him as the arbitrator of their concerns, many of ing to the sotting of the sun, the faith of the Catholic be. 
whom submitted their kingdoms to him, and laid them at liever, and the doctrines of the Catholic church, are ever, 
his feet, consenting to receive them back from him as fiefs, lastingly and universally the same. But then he concludes 
the case is different. The power that he exercised under that as Catholics in some instances in former times, perse, 
that authority, of course passed away, when those temporal cuted, — so, their religion being always the same, they are 
princes, who granted it, chose to withdraw it. His spiritu- stiii bound to persecute, or else disavow the doctrine, as 
al power does not allow him to dethrone kings, or to ab- Protestants do. Now, sir, we do disavow and despise the 
solve their subjects from the allegiance due to them ; and doctrine of pesecution in ail its essence and forms. But 
any attempt of that kind I would consider contrary to does it follow, that by this, we disavow any doctrine of the 
scripture and tradition. Catholic church ? By no means. And this proves that 

"Does the Pope now dispose of temporal affairs within the persecution never was any portion of the Catholic faith ; 
kingdoms of any of the princes of the Continent? Not for if it had been, the denial of it would cut us off from her 
that I am aware of; I am sure he does not. communion. The church we believe, by the promise and 

" Do the Catholic clergy admit that all the bulls of the superintendance of Ch'-ist her invisible head and founder, 
. Pope are entitled to obedience ? They are entitled to a to be infallible. She received the deposit of the doctrines 
certain degree of reverence. If not contrary to our revealed by Our Redeemer and his Apostles ; her oifico 
usages, or contrary to the law of God, of course they are is to witness, teach, and preserve them. These alone con- 
entitled to obedionce, as coming from a superior. We owe stitute the religious creed and doctrines of the Catholic 
obedience to a parent, we owe obedience to the King, we church and her members. We believe in a Trinity, the 
owe it to the law ; but if a parent, the King, or the law, Incarnation of Christ, the Redemption by his death, the 
were to order us to do any thing that is wrong, we would divine Institution of the church. These and whatever the 
deem it a duty to say, as tha Apostles did on another oc church holds, as of Divine Revelation, are the doctrines of 
casion, " We ought to obey God rather than men." our Cntholic unity. And the individual, who is now ad- 

" Are there circumstances under which the Catholic cler- dressing you, and the Catholic martyr, who is at this mo- 
gy would not obey a bull of the Pope ? Most certainly. ment perhaps bleeding for his faith in China, — for the 
" What is the true meaning of the following words, in the church has her martyrs still ; hold and believe identically 
creed of Pius the Fourth: "I promise and swear true the same doctrines. But as there is unity in faith, so there 
obedience to the Roman Bishop, the Successor of Saint is, in the church, freedom of opinion on matters which are 
Peter?" Canonical obedience, in the manner I have just not determined by any specific revelation. Hence we are 
described, within the sphere of his own authority. Republicans, or Monarchists, according to individual pre- 

" What do the principles of the Catholic religion teach, in ference, or the prevailing genius of the country, we belong 
respect to the performance of civil duties ? They teach to. Hence, when the Catholic divines at Rheims were 
that the performance of civil duties is a conscientious obli. appending these notes to their edition of the New Testa- 
gation which the law of God imposes on us, ment, the Catholic Bishops of Poland, with her 22 millions, 

" Is the divine law then quite clear, as to the allegiance were opening the doors of the Constitution to the fugitive 
due by subjects to their prince ? Quite clear. Protestants of Germany, fleeing from the intolerance & per- 

" In what books are to be found the most authentic e.vposi- secution of their fellow protestants. The one act is as 
tionofthe Faith of the Catholic church.? In that very much a Catholic doctrine as the other, because in both 
creed that has been mentioned, the creed of Pius the cases (he agents acted, not by the authority of the church. 
Fourth; in the catechism which was published by the di- but in the exercise of that individual judgment for which 
rection of the Council of Trent, called " The Roman Gate- their account stands to God. 

chism,"or " The Catechism of the Council of Trent;" But 1 must be brief. I cannot follow so many learned 
" An E.\position of the Catholic Faith, by the Bishop of speakers through so much matter that is foreign to the sub- 
Meaux, Bossuet;" "Verron's Rule of Faith;" "Holden's ject ; for I agree with the medical gentleman, who said 
Analysis of Faith " and several others." that neither the Catholic nor the Protestant religion was 

Such is the character and limitation of the Pope's au. on trial here, it is not religious creeds that are to be tested 
Ihority, attested under oath, by Bisho])s and other Catholic by this council. I have however, given this explanation, 
dignitaries before the British Parliament. The Catholics and I trust it will be received, though it may have been te- 
of Great Britain and Ireland had been bowed down to the dious, as having its apology in the remarks, which called it 
earth, by penal laws and persecution during 300 years — forth. I only wish that the gentlema i, who made the ob- 
with nothing between them and the enjoyment of all their servation had made it one hour and a half sooner ; it would 
rights, but the solemnity of an oath. If their conscience have saved all I have said on the subject. 
had permitted them to swear what they did not believe, they But this speaker also, [Doctor Reese] lectured me for 
might have entered on their political rights at any time, and attending certain meetings, as if it were a descent from 
yet as martyrs to the sacredness of conscience they re- my dignity to find myself in an assembly of Freemen, i 
sisted. did not consider it as a descent. But really when 1 came 

I have now, sir, supplied the Reverend gentleman, who here in the simple character of a citizen, I did not think I 
presented the remonstrance from the Methodist Episcopal should be vested with my official robes for the purpose of 
church, will all the information which the occasion permits being attacked. Individuals as respectable as he attended 
on the subject of the Pope's authority. But there is a those meetings, and I consider it no disgrace to have been 
good deal more to which if time allowed, I mio-ht address there or here ; for even if this petition came not from 
myself. He became very logical and insisted on the fact , Catholics, but from Methodists or any other Protestant de- 



54 

nomination, whose consciences were violated by this sys- which he has alluded, as though my speaking there had 
tem, I should be found in their midst supporting their claim, been the cause instead of the consequence of the scruples 
Let me add too, that I would rather be so found, than for of our people. Then it was I joined tliein toseeka reme- 
all the exchequer of the Public School Society, exchange dy, for our just complaint, but if in your wisdom this body 
places with gentlemen, and have conscience and right for shall think proper to deny it as we must bear it. 
my opponents. He also contended, that this want of con- He contended again that it would be turning the pub^ 
fidenoe in Catholics was the result of my appeals, forget- lie money to private uses. That seems to me to have 
tinn- that the state of things which is now brought under pub- been fully answered. He also contended that it would be 
lie notice has existed for years, by efforts to provide a the giving of the money of the State to support religion, 
safe education for our children, long before those meetings That I have disputed ; for if so I shall liave no objection to 
were called, and before I attended them. And besides I join those gentlemen in their remonstrance. But at the 
conceive it is my bounden duty, if I saw principles incul- same time it does appear strange to me that the gentleman, 
cated which will sap the young minds of our children, and who pretends to have read the scriptures with so much at- 
I have no doubt this honorable board will say it is my duty, tention, should not have learned that principle — the most ge- 
to warn them, and to bring them within the pale of that au- neral, sir, and the most infallible of Christian principles for 
thority, which they acknowledge. I wonder if Presbyte. the guidance of our conduct — "Do unto others as ye 
rian gentlemen would see Catholic books, circulated would that others should do unto you." That is 
amongst their childen, and not warn their people against the principle,; and is it not strange that such opposition 
them? 1 wonder, if these books contained reading lessons should be made to us when ii is known that money raised 
about Calvin and the unhappy burning of Servetus, whether by public tax, goes to the support of literature under the su- 
they would not warn their people. I say, if they believe in pervision of the Methodist Episcopal Church? And 
their religion, they would be in the discharge of their duty, why do not Catholics object to that? Because the tax does 
And while on this subject it occurs to me at this moment, not belong to any particular sect; it is thrown into a com- 
that in the wide range of observation which has been taken, mon fund and applied to such uses as the legislature in its 
reference has been made to national education in Ireland, wisdom thinks proper. We sir, however, ask for our own 
And we are told that after books had been agreed upon, and nothing else. But if you say that we shall be taxed for 
the Bishops sent the question to Rome; to be decided by the a system which is so organized that we cannot participate in 
Pope. What question 1 Can they tell? for I am sure I it without detriment to the religious rights of our children, 
cannot. To this day, I have never understood the exact na- then I say that injustice is done even to our civil rights ; for 
ure of the reference to the Pope, but sir,this is no ext.r-aordi. taxation is the basis of even civil rights. And I was not 
nary thing. Under the jealous eye of the Brhish Govern- a little struck in the course of the argument, that some gen- 
ment, even in the darkest hour of her cruelty to Catholics, tleman should refer with so much emphasis as to a circum- 
thoir in'ercourse with Rome was not interrupted. But while stance novel and unparalleled even in social life— that a 
that collection and compilation of scripture lessons was certain class of gentlemen should petition for what? The 
agreed on in the more Catholic parts of ihe country where privilege of being ta.xed! They deemed it a privilege ; and 
the population is divided between Protestants and Catholic, that was wonderful ! and merit was ascribed to them for it. 
what is the fact ? Why in another part, the North of Ire- Yes, sir, but did it go to the extent only of their own pock- 
land, where the Presbyterians are more numerous, they gts? Or did it not reach the pockets equally of those who 
had conscientious objections to this selection of scripture, did not petition? If to themselves only, it was all fair, 
they asserted their objections, and the British Government and proper, disinterested and patriotic : but great emphasis 
recognized them ; and thus while these lessons, by agree- ,y^, i^^i^ ,3U tj^jg classbeing most « intelligent," and " weal- 
ment.were in general use,an exception was made in favor of thy," and "respectable," nobility almost, as though aquestion 
the Presbytenans,who had objections to the use of any thing ^f this kind was intended for a particular class. But let 
but the naked word of God, and I say, honor to those Presby- me tell you the honest man who occupies only abedsna 
■terians. The Catholics sent in no remonstrance. But if the .gt, jg j^jgQ ^ tax payer. Why give him a vote? Be- 
rule applied to their case, by what authority will your hon- ^^^^^ ^g ^^^^ tax for the space he occupies. If he occu- 
orable body determine that it shall not apiily to ours ? Oh ! I pj^^ ^ ^.^^^ j,„j p,^yg j^e tax, his rent is less— if the land- 
perceive. The gentleman whose remarks, 1 am reviewing j^j.^ p^^g^ j^jg ,.gjjt is so much more. So, if he occupies a 
reasoned on uniil he arrived at the conclusion, that there g^y^.Qt_Q^. if he boards, it goes down to that, for the person 
were no conscientious grounds for our objection at all- .^^^o keeps the boarding house pays the rent ; if that tax is 
True, we said we had ; but he could not see what eon- y by the boarding house keeper the rent is so much less, 
science had to do with a matter so plain. Hb said, here f^an if the tax was paid by the landlord. If the boarding 
the community had built up a beautiful system ; it was ^ouse keeper pays the tax he charges more for board. So 
doing good ; he asked shall we put it aside in deference to j^at the boarder is a tax payer, and it is so understood in our 
pretended scruples ? Now, tell me when the despotism of ^road and excellent system of representation. The exclu- 
intollerance ever said any thing else than this ?— ^-^^ ^^^^j^ ^f this tax, then, is not to be given to any parti- 
Why the established Church of England said "we are do- c^iar class, no matter how wealthy ; and I was surprised 
mg good, " our doors are open to all the minister is at ^h^t so much emphasis should be laid on it. I did not sup- 
the c esk, and the bread of li!e is distributed or the public j^at the interests of the poor were to be sacrificed to 

good, What then ? What business have these unhappy [j^^ respectability of the rich. The poor pay too, and it is 
parentsto find fault, for conscience sake, and squeamish- ^ beautiful and admirable thing to see what a dignity this 
ness? Now sir, objections can exist to the slightest shade ^^^^^^^^ ^^^ human nature-what an interest this excites in 
of violation to our conscience, and therefore, I did not ex- ^^^ j ^.^^^^^^^^ ■ ^^ ^ g^^.^^j ^^^^ time 

pect to hear this argument at this time of day. But the ^.^^^ ^,^j j observed a little house, almost a shed or hovel, 
gentleman speaks of my addressing the public meetings to gome fourteen or sixteen feet square, which was too smaPt 



55 



to be divided into two compartments. It had but one win- the state is sure in this ease, that the benefits of the fund 
dow, and tins had originally had four panes of glass, but in the way it designed to confer them, will be reaped by the 
one having been broken it was darkened. There had been poor. But the objection to the section, souo-ht to be repeal 
some pohtical party triumph ; the boys in the streets had ed is, that the surplus monies, after the payment ofteach- 
their drums out and there appeared to be a popular rejoic- ers, is vested in the hands of the trustees of a reljo-ious so- 
ing, and there I saw three lights burning in the window of ciety, ano mingled with its other funds, to be appropriated 
this poor habitation. I was amused to see that a man liv- to the erection of buildings under the control of the trustees 
ing in so poor a hovel, and unable to buy a fourth pane of which buildings may, and in all probability will be used for 
glass should find means to light the other three. But on other purposesthan school houses." ' 

further reflection I said to myself, "there is philosophy That is the statement of the Public School Society itself • 
there." What other nation can exhibit such a spectacle? and throughout this document— while the gentlemen here 
This poor man who must toil till the day he goes to his have been wielding against our petition the influence of re- 
grave, participates m a political triumph. His bread has spectable and wealihy classes— I find that before the acquisi- 
to be earned by daily toil, nevertheless, though the triumph tion of their monopoly, they advocated the claims of the 
perfc.ps will never benefit him, he exhibits a glorious spec- poor who cannot 6»j/ educafion-sometimes scarcely bread 
tacle to the world. He is a man— he feels it is recognized. This is the class to whose welfare the eye of the enliohten- 
It is a nation's homage offered to human nature. He is a ed, the patriotic, and the benevolent should be directed— 
MAN and a citizen ; and on reflection I was delighted at tliis is the class that essentially requires education Thus 
a spectacle so glorious as this. they say, " The school fund is designed for a civil puipose 

But returning to the subject, they say all religion is left to for such is the edtication oj the jioor." ' 

voluntary contribution. Now is this true in the sense in Again, they say that the New York Free School (that 
which it is here applied ? Are not chaplains appointed to pub- was their own Society) has " one single object, the cdvca- 
lic institutions which are supported by the public money ? tion of the poor:'' Again, the Board of Trustees is annu- 
And haveyounotgivenit totheProtestantOrphan Assylum, ally chosen, &c., <■' for the education oj the <poor." And 
and the half orphan assylum? Have you not given it to the yet now I could point out thousands of our poor' who are 
Catholic Benevolent Society? Anddo you suppose the Wes- destitute of education, and who have no means to piovide 
leyan Catechism is taught there? Do you suppose the Ca- it. We do what we can, but we are too limited in means 
tholic Catechism is taught in the Protestant Asylums? One to raise, of ourselves, a sufficient fund; we have laboured 
gentleman argued that you had not power to do this. But under great disadvantages ; we have taught the catechism in 
if you have done it, does not that prove that you had the our schools because while roc supported them we had the 
power? If you had power to do that you have power equal- right to do so ; but if you put them on the footing of the 
ly to do this. I shall go further. I find in the Report of common schools we shall be satisfied, and the state will se- 
the Regents of the University, that the Genesee Wesleyan cure the education , of our children ; you will secure them 
Seminary— Theological Seminary, as I understand— has an education on the basis of morality for they had better 
last year received $1,395 56 of the public money. This be brought up under the morality ot' our reli^on, thouoh 
IS not exxlusively literary as I understand it— gentlemen object, than none at all. They say the objection 

JJR. Bangs. Altogether literary. to the present schools is that there they are made Proles- 

BisHOp Hughes. I was under the impression that it tants. No, sir, it is because they are made mthin "avians, 
was Iheological, and that religion was admitted. But for we cannot tell what they are. I have now concluded 
those inthiscityfurnishevidence that a religious profession and if I have been obliged'to trespass long upon your pa- 
does not disqualify. tience, recollect as some extenuatioh, that I had a great 

1 believe now sir, I have gone through the substance at deal to reply to in the arguments of gentlemen which were 
least, if not through every particular, of what has been said urged to overthrow the principles of our petition but 
by the gentlemen who interpose their remonstrances and had no bearing on the petition at all. We do not a.k for 
their arguments m opposition to our rightful claim. I will the elevation of the Catholics over others • but for the pro- 
nowread one authority, and I am the more willing because tection to which all are entitled. The question is exceed- 
it is from the public school society themselves. It is from ingly plain, and simple. If it has or can be shown that we 
tte memorial which they presented to the Legislature in the are claiming this money for sectarian purposes, then I 
Session of 1823, m which they state, page 7, "It will not should advise you to withhold it. But if in honesty, and 
be denied —recollect I do not quote this to show that our truth, and sincerity, it is a right belonging to us as citizens, 
petition ought to be granted ; but that whatever opinion to receive our ^ro rate, then we appeal to you with confi- 
these gentlemen may nojohave of the unconstitutionality of dence. 

granting this claim, they saw nothing unconstitutional in From the sentiments expressed here on behalf of the 
the practice then, and I know of nothing so far as the con- Public School Society, you can judge of the chance that 
stitution IS concerned, neither of the state, nor of the United Catholic children have in those schools, to have their reli- 
btates— 1 know of no enactment which should change their gious rights respected. It will be, as perhaps it has been, 
°^!fTf°"' -11 <.u J • J ■ , • considered a great and a good work to detach them from a 

It will not be denied, in this enlightened age, that the religion which is supposed « to teach the lawfulness of mur- 
education of the poor is enjoined by our holy religion, and dering heretics." Infidelity itself will be considered pre- 
is therefore, one of the duties of a Christian Church. Nor ferable to Catholicism in their regard, for one Rev. gentle- 
is there any impropriety in committing the school fund to man has told you that if there was no alternative, he would 
the hands of a religious society, so long as they are confin- embrace the doctrines of Voltaire, rather than the religion 
ed in the appropriation of It, to an object not necessarily of a Cheverus or a Fenelon. If the Catholics have been 
connected, or intermingled with the other concerns of the obliged to keep their children from those schools in time 
church, as tor instance to the payment of teachers, because past, you may imagine what effects these sentiments, this 



56 

animus of the system is likely to have on their minds for They are established by a public act of the State, for a pub- 

the time to come. But if it is our religious right to have a lie purpose, and they have accomplished their purpose they 

conscience at all, do not take pains to pervert it, for we have furnished all the education they promised. But now 
shall not be better citizens afterwards. Do not teach us to the reverend gentleman says, his conscience, and the con- 
slight the admonitions of our conscience. Reverse our sciences of the Roman Catholic community are violated 

case and make it your own, and then you will be able to because they cannot send their children to these schools. 

judge. Make it your own ease, and suppose your children Do th?y mean to say they have conscientious scruples 
were in the case of those poor children tor whom I plead; against paying their portion of the taux for the support of 
then suppose what your feelings would be if the blessings of tliese schools ( It might well be that some denominations 
education were provided bountifully by the State, and you of Christians, have conscientious scruples against sending 
were unable to participate in tliose blessings, unless you their poor to be taken care of at the alms-house ; but would 
were willing to submit that your conscience should be they have the right to say that they .vould not therefore be 
trenched upon. taxed for the support of the poor? The conscientious scru- 

Here the Right Rev. PreLte sat d.wa af:er having spo- pie here is not against paying the tax, but against sending 
ken for nearly thre 3 hours and a half. their children to these schools: now, who compels them? 

Dr. Bangs. I wish simply to correct an error into Does the State interfere and say they shall send their chil- 
which the Rev. gentleman has fallen, respecting an obser- dren to these schools? The State says that they, in com- 
vation I made as to a matter of fact. I believe he under- mon with others, shall pay the tax to support these institu- 
stood me to say that it was my opinion the legislature ought tions of learning : have they alleged that their consciences 
to take the children of Catholics and compell them to at- are violated by paying this tax? Can they say so? No. 
tend the schools. If so, he misunderstood me. [I meant Wherein then consists this pressure on their consciences? 
to say that those children that do not go to any schools Now, Mr. President, allow me to talce another view of 
ought to be compelled to go to the public schools. this conscientious objection. If I am taxed to support the 

A brief conversation ensued between the Right Rev. religion of the Roman Catholics, my conscience is violat- 
Bishop Hughes, and Dr. Bond in explanation of the charge ed, because I am compelled to pay a tax to support that, 
made against John Wesley that he had aided or excited which I believe ought not to be supported. If you establish 
Lord George Gordon's mob. these sectarian schools through this community, and make 

The Right Rev. Bishop Hughes. Might I be allow- Protestants pay for Catholic schools, then indeed you in- 
ed to read the passage from the chapter on "the character fringe the right of conscience, because you compel them to 
of Christ" by the Bishop of London, to which reference has do that which is a violation of their consciences.. But we 
been had. Speaking of Jesus Christ it says : do not compel them to attend these schools. We receive 

" His answers to the many insidious questions that were this public bounty, and we come here and account for 
put to him, showed uncommon quickness of conception, the manner in which we use it. The gentleman does not 
soundness of judgment and presence of mind ; completely object to this. He does not object to our doing good to 
baffled all the artifices and malice of his enemies; and ena- the children that do come. That is not the objection; but 
bled him to elude all the snares that were laid for him." he objects that he cannot send his children. He pays a tax 

Mr. Ketchum rose and said, I wish, sir, to say a few for a necessary public purpose — admitted to be necessary 
words in explanation. I do not wish to continue the theo- — but because he cannot come in and participate, he in- 
logical discussion, but to make a few remarks on the pre- sists that this public fund shall be taken by ihe Roman Ca- 
cise issue before the Board. tholics, by the Methodists, by any and every other denomi- 

The Chairman — That has, I apprehend, been very fully nation, to support their religion. Grant this, and then in- 
debated. ' deed you will infringe the right of conscience. I do not 

Mr. Ketchum — I desire to make a remark in reply to mean that the reverend gentleman shall have the advantage 
the gentleman on the other side, in reference to the publi- here of standing on this right of conscience. The con- 
cation of the Bishop of London. But first, sir, the rever- sciences of thousands and tens of thousands of this com- 
end gentleman, has endeavored, with great dexterity, to munity will be violated, if they are to be compelled to pay 
place this case upon the consciences of the Catholic Socie- a tax to the public treasury, and from thence to make reli- 
ty. He has represented the decisiou of this Board against gionists of a description that they oppose. I want this 
their petition, as a violation of the rights of conscience. — matter to be set right, not only in the estimation of this 
He well knows the favorable attitude in which they sta nd. Board, but of the public. I want them to see what this op- 
who appear to be persecuted for conscience salte. Does pression of conscience is. If it is any where it is on those 
the reverend gentleman mean to say here, he has consci- who pay the tax of which they do not in their conscience 
entious scruples against these schools as public institutions? approve ; the pressure is not on the man that cannot send 
Does he mean to affirm here, that they have not performed his children to paiticipate in the fund. I cannot send my 
all they promised — namely, to give a good, secular educa- children to these schools. There are obstacles in the way 
tion to the poor ? No, that is not aflirmed. Whatever he as formidable as the gentleman's conscience. There are 
may have stated, and whatever he may have contradicted, obstacles perhaps with tens of thousands who pay the tax, 
throughout the length of his address, he made no such de- but do not participate, and who cannot participate, because 
claration. But the Pioman Catholics have conscientious this obstacle exists. But have they the right to say they 
scruples — tney cannot send their children to these schools will withhold their tax? Would the State listen to such an 
without sacrificing their right of conscience! Now the objection? No; the State has established these public in- 
« Friends" cannot send their children to these schools, be- stitutions for a necessary public purpose; every man must 
cause they believe, in their consciences, that they ought to be taxed for their support; and if he does not avail himself 
educate their own children; but can the Friends say they of them, it must be his own fault, or his own peculiarities 
are opposed, upon conscientious grounds, to these schools'? perhaps. And now what, alter all, is the objection to these 



schools? Why from the beginning to the end of this cept the theological part? And now tne next great topic is 

three hours speech, we have heard that these books con- the Bible. 

tain passages that reflect on Catholics. The President. — The gentleman is not in order. 

Mr. Ketchum.— I'll not press this matter if it is disa- 

. The Chairman mterposed. greeable. I know the nig-ht is far advanced. 

Mr. Ketchum continued. This is new matter so far as The Chairman. — I must say the gentleman is out of 
I am concerned. From the beginning to the end of the order. The Board agreed that the parties should be heard 
gentleman's speech, we have heard that the books used in in the order in which their memorials were presented — that 
Siese public schools, contain passages that reflect on Roman the petitioners should have the usual right to reply: they 
Catholics. Now I submit to any fair, candid man, if this have been so heard, and the gentleman is therefore out of 
is the time of day to bring such a charge. The books have order unless the Board rescinds its resolution, 
been placed in the hands of the reverend gentleman; he An Alderman then observed that there were some gen- 
has been asked to put his finger on any objectionable pas- tlemen that were desirous of putting in written legal opi- 
sages, that the Board might pass a resolution for its expur- nions, and he moved that they have permission to do so at 
gation ; and now the gentleman comes here and lays great the next meeting of the Board. 

stress on, and urges as an argument against the system from The President said that the next meeting of the board 
the beginning to the end, the passages which the trustees was Monday next, and therefore no order of the board was 
offered to expunge. Sir, when the trustees offered to ex- nece^ary for an adjournment on the subject, 
punge the passages, in all fairness and candor, they were to It was then understood that legal opinions would be re- 
be considered, for the true purposes of this argument, as ex- ceived at the next meeting of the Board, 
punged. And if they were expunged, what would become The debate was here brought to a close, and the coun- 
©fthree-fourthaof the gentleman's speech; all indeed, ex- cil adjourned a few minutes before twelve o'clock. 



